Circular Podcast with Nina Tolstrup

In the sixth episode of Series 01, Katie Treggiden talks to co-founder of Studiomama, Nina Tolstrup about the impact her Scandinavian childhood had on her approach to sustainability, meeting her husband and co-founder Jack at Doors of Perception, their eco-criteria for every design they create together, and the moves towards circularity they’ve seen in the last decade within the manufacturers they work with.

Below is a transcript of our conversation. Find the full episode available to listen on Spotify here.

Katie Treggiden 

I’m Katie Treggiden and this is Circular, a podcast exploring the intersection of craft, design, and sustainability. Join me as I talk to the thinkers, doers, and makers of the circular economy. These are the people who are challenging the linear take make waste model of production and consumption, and working towards something better. In this series we’re talking about waste.

Nina Tolstrup 

I think you question everything in the light of whether it’s, it’s defensible you know, whether it’s sustainable. Is it necessary? Do we need this you know? I mean, a lot of things are killed, you know, because it’s like, doesn’t tick all the boxes that need to be ticked today.

Katie Treggiden 

Studio Mama is an East London based multidisciplinary design studio founded by the creative couple, Nina Tolstrup and Jack Mama in 2000. Nina draws on a deep grounding in design and an innate connection to nature that’s inherent in her Scandinavian roots, and was honed during her training at Les Ateliers, Paris. Combining this with her diverse experience in trends, design management, photojournalism and marketing in Paris, London and Copenhagen, gives her a 3D perspective and a unique approach to design. Tell me about your childhood in Denmark and where things like creativity and nature and sustainability came into your upbringing?

Nina Tolstrup 

I grew up in Copenhagen in a suburb. Copenhagen is so small so when I say suburbia, it’s 20 minutes bike ride into the centre by the sea. And so after school, we would go in the summer, we would go swimming, spent the afternoons on the beach, that was basically at the end of the road. And that we did, every one of my friends, and also a lot of biking in the woods, and all the winter we would be skating on the lakes. And so it’s a very different upbringing from my kids upbringing in London. And in that way, yes, of course, there was much more of connection with nature. When you’re in it, you don’t think about it, you know, so it’s that’s my, my upbringing. But you know, when you have a bit of distance to it, you think that that was really a really nice childhood. Outdoor activity, it was quite safe. I mean, we didn’t have the issues that I have had bringing my kids up in London about traffic and concerns, and we would play out in the streets and just go on the bike, jump on the bike, and, you know, bike around. So that was a lot of freedom, in our upbringing, biking to school. I mean, the way of biking I mean, of course, this is what you see a lot in London now, which is great that people are taking up biking. Not that’s been here for a long time, but now people don’t want to go on public transport, so it’s even more kind of on people’s mind. Getting the bikes out or buying a bike and the Mayor of London is kind of making big new kind of changes to where you can bike into central London. So, all that is really great, but when I was brought up, we had bike lanes, so it was really safe to bike. And I feel like I should bike more. I don’t feel safe biking in London. But so there was all those elements of life. It was really just a very free outdoor upbringing. With woods and sea and you know, so there was this connection to nature. Yeah, it’s different from being in London. So we are living here now. But so that was one bit of it. Sustainability – I would say that is not something that was on anyone’s mind back in the 70s. You know, I mean, not deliberately, I mean, certain things have changed over time, but that was something that we have been talking about or working with much later, and it was not a word in our vocabulary.

Katie Treggiden 

But I guess there’s a respect. I mean, I had a similar childhood to yours. I grew up in Cornwall, I spent most of my childhood on the beach and the countryside on boats. And there was certainly – we didn’t call it sustainability – but there was, there was a respect for the countryside. There was a respect for the ocean, you picked up your litter. You know, I think when you grow up in nature in that way, you have a relationship to it in a way that perhaps people who grow up in cities don’t. Do you think that’s fair?

Nina Tolstrup 

Yeah, no, I think that’s fair. But there was also I mean, in many ways, different kind of culture. I mean, the Scandinavian countries or Denmark, where I was born, we had this kind of lunchpack kind of culture that we would have our open day sandwiches always, you know. So you would bring your things, you would have your thermo, you will have your lunchbox – like that’s coming back a bit now – but there wasn’t take away food, you did take your things back with you because you brought your things in your, you know, thermal flask or recycled glass bottle, you know, a top on and, and yor lunchbox, you know. So in that way it was of course of respect, but it was just how things were done. There wasn’t the issue of rubbish in the same way.

Katie Treggiden 

And then you studied at Les Ateliers in Paris.

Nina Tolstrup 

Yes, but before that I studied marketing in Copenhagen at Copenhagen Business School, and started working in marketing advertising for some years. So that was a little bit of a different education and background. And from there, because I was the one that did all the marketing plans and had the budget and working with the creative people. And at some point, I think I thought I’d rather be on the other side. And I think the creative people thought, like I kind of was reaching too much out over their side of the table. So then I had a friend that was studying in Paris, and you know, that kind of connections, you know, that got introduced to Les Ateliers, which was, at the time, a really incredible creative school, it was quite free. And people were just coming and going and working and sleeping under the table, staying overnight. I mean, it was kind of quite out of control, in many ways. And later on, they had to for security reasons to change that. But when I started it was like that, it was this fantastic hub of people just all working in workshops, experimenting and loud music. 24/7. I mean, I say 24/7 but there’s not much happening until after 2pm in the afternoon. But I also came as a mature student, and came in with the fourth years, as in the fourth year, because of my background. I was allowed in, in that way. So that was an introduction to working. But I mean, it wasn’t like a full education. I mean, I kind of jumped in some kind of later years before graduation, and then I continued in Paris working with trends, and trend forecasting for a year or something, before I went back to Copenhagen and then I did photojournalism and had some shops doing secondhand furnishing. And a lot of it were props that we rented out for photoshoots and film shoots. So it’s all kind of things that are building around that idea, but I didn’t really design until I met Jack my husband in Holland in Doors of Perception in ’97.

Katie Treggiden 

And I wanted to ask you about Doors of Perception, which as you say is where you met Jack. Tell me a little bit about that conference and about what was in the air at the time. It sounds like a really exciting experience and a sort of prescient time to come together with Jack.

Nina Tolstrup 

Yeah, no, I mean, Doors of Perception was a really, I mean, incredible game changer for a lot of people. I mean, John Thackara, at the time was director of the Dutch Design Institute that funded this conference and then ran it from, I think, almost over a seven year period, from 93 to 2000. And they had a new theme every year, so it started with a week’s kind of workshops and ended up in this kind of big day full conference, a bit like kind of Ted Talk kind of idea. You know, I mean, that kind of feel, you know, you’re sitting in a big theatre and all kinds of amazing, people were talking. So what they invited was a mix of, I mean, grassroot innovators, entrepreneurs, educators, and designers. It was all about reimagining alternative futures, meaning sustainability. So it was, I mean, within the design community, and of course, there’s a lot of awareness, but it was, I mean, quite early on that kind of like, talking about technology, sustainability, I mean, how do we imagine these things working out? You know, I mean, some of the themes for the different years was like, info, eco, speed – talking about the speed things was happening in you know, unsustainability. I mean, high and low speed, but that was the theme. Play, playfulness and lightness, you know, so that was different themes that they then invited people to talk but it was not always I mean, it’s not designers talking to designers. They actually had an incredible amount of people that came from physics, biology. I mean, education, I mean sight, kind of inspiration for designers. You know, there was obviously also designers and architects talking, but it was like drawing in new knowledge and inspiration, you know, for a wider kind of dialogue, and insight, so it was really incredible. And, I mean, I think they unfortunately closed down in 2000, because the Dutch Design Institute closed down, but John Thackara has, has continued developing all kinds of activities and themes and written books within this space of sustainability. And, of course, what was the big thing is that, that ended up every year in this amazing party, you know, and I never been to so incredible parties, you know, it was like, I mean, kind of, you know, events. And I mean, it was just fantastic, you know, really fun. And I mean, I think so many, not only me and Jack, but I mean….there’s so many people that coupled up through Doors of Perception. Not like that. But yeah, I think they had a lot of influence in inspiring and putting sustainability in the mind and on the agenda for a lot of designers. And for many years. I mean, in that early years, you know, for a lot of us was just like to get the head around. I mean, what do we do? How do we tackle this? You know, I mean, you’re up against industry and manufacturing that are very set in ways. It was quite difficult then, and there was not so much knowledge and systems in place, you know. But that has of course changed so much today, you know, so that landscape is very different now.

Katie Treggiden 

And I think, as you mentioned, it wasn’t just designers there. And I think some of those cross disciplinary collaborations, aware, actually, a lot of the really exciting stuff is happening. But before we get on to that, you met Jack Mama, and took his surname for Studio Mama, which you now run together. In what ways do notions of sustainability inform your work as a practice now?

Nina Tolstrup 

It’s on the agenda all the time. I mean, a lot of it is like, just, of course, now, it seems that wasn’t, of course, 10 years ago, but we question everything, you know, it’s constantly, like, how do we get around this? How can we justify? I mean, because of designers, we’d love to create. I mean, you can fill the sketchbook endlessly with ideas, but I think we question everything on in the light of whether it’s defensible, you know, but like, sustainable, is it necessary? Do we need this? You know, I mean, a lot of things are killed, but you know, because it’s like, it doesn’t tick all the boxes that need to be ticked today? So I think that, that is something that is always I mean, very much at the forefront of what we do. And now, of course, I mean, there’s so many amazing companies, and so much, I mean, shared interest in moving this forward. But I mean, obviously, as designers, there are certain things, what can we do that some kind of feel we have certain control over? So I mean, obviously, within the design, there’s a certain amount of choice of materials, how things are constructed, how it’s put together? I mean, in terms of fittings, that it can be disassembled? Is it easy to recycle? How many different materials do you use? I mean, preferably as little as possible. And so there’s a lot of these things that we are getting better at and in understanding, getting lots more information about how to address our practice of being as sustainable as possible.

Katie Treggiden 

And I think in some ways, you were ahead of the game as a practice on this. I’m particularly interested in talking to you about your reimagined project in its various iterations. So you were working on an interior design project, you needed some chairs, and rather than buying some, designing some to make them from scratch, you spotted some that had been discarded on the street. Tell me more.

Nina Tolstrup 

Yes, that came together of many different practical reasons, you know, so I had this little townhouse that we need to furnish, had a limited amount of money or budget to, to do it and limited amount of time, you know, so there were several things like. Just starting from scratch was already a pressure, you know, both in terms of time and finance, and also creating something that had personality because one of the things we love to do in studio mama is to create spaces more than a table and a chair or, you know, a new new kitchen, you know, but it’s kind of getting things to work together as a whole. So that’s and maybe also go a bit back to some early days of inspiration, because we had a lot of that kind of Arne Jakobsen that I’d inherited. It worked like that, in terms of combining, designing all the elements to create, to be in control of creating a space. So for that reason, also, I was very keen to make our own furniture. So that led down the road of upcycling as a as a kind of a shortcut in a way, you know, both in terms of budget and time and money, and it was possible. And then, of course, I mean, walk the streets of London or go down to whatever markets or you know secondhand shops, and there’s so much like, unwanted furniture around. And so for this, I just had this place called the like the furniture graveyard, they’re not there anymore, unfortunately. But it’s one of those kind of places where they just sold secondhand, whatever, but it was thrown in a pile of, like, rubbish. I don’t I mean, it was very kind of unattractive, the whole setting of it. But anyway, but I was going through things and looking at things. And then I spotted that this set of six chairs. And I could just see the framing was very, the metalwork was very interesting in that kind of form and shape. But you know, obviously, the seats and it was stinking of cat pee, and you know….but anyway, but the metal frame had some interesting possibilities. So I kind of got them into our workshop and took all the seats and, and the backing and the handles off. And then I started working with cutting out the cardboard and you know, kind of putting different kinds of shapes and playing around with…reimagined how the chair could work using the metal frame. And so that ended up being 6 chairs that we put into this project. And I mean, we powder-coated the metal frame and got the seats upholstered and then of course, all of a sudden, you had a chair that was looking like out of the factory brand new.

Katie Treggiden 

In some ways, they do look brand new, but they don’t necessarily look like they’ve come off a factory line because they’ve got so much character. And they’re sort of elongated seats and backrests. I think they almost have sort of anthropomorphic qualities. How did you feel when you sort of saw that transformation from these sort of sad, discarded broken little chairs into how they ended up in this kind of really gorgeous collection?

Nina Tolstrup 

Well of course, it was, I mean, playful and fun, and quite exciting in the way that it was so accessible, to pick something up and transform it. And then, I mean, I say a short span of time, because, you know, I mean, to create new piece of furniture is like a really long process. And so this was, I mean, something that could happen quite, quite quickly. And it was just really fun time in the workshop. And then I saw all the kind of possibilities, you know, it’s like, ‘oh my God, you know, I can just do all kinds of, I mean, all the shapes and colours.’ And so then that led to my pieces from 19 Greek Street. So they came across this, this interior, that I had made and invited us to do a show for his gallery, and I then found similar, but I found 20 chairs and what was this kind of square cheap metal frames like used in kind of office, kind of lounging area chairs, you know, in this very square frames, but I had 20 of them. So I thought okay, that’s kind of fun to play around with. But then I started cutting the frames up and made them longer and more narrow and higher, like cutting the middle and melding it together. So all of a sudden, I could create these kinds of lounging chair and I’m like a high seating chair and a topple chair. And so we made this kind of a collection of 10 different chairs out of these 20 frames. It also it was like kind of really playful. Yeah. And there’s more I mean, experimenting with what one could do, like 20, similar chair frames, create something that I mean, was so kind of different, but it was just using, obviously the, the base of the frame. And this was, you know, this would have, I mean, gone to the dump. I mean, it had no value for anyone.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, and 19 Greek Street just for listeners was a sort of cultural exhibition space in London, Soho, wasn’t it?

Nina Tolstrup 

Yes.

Katie Treggiden  

After the break. I’ll be talking to Nina about matching mannequins with chairs at New York Design Week, designed for disassembly, and why waste is not a second grade material.

Katie Treggiden 

I might have mentioned I’ve got a new book coming out. Wasted: When Trash Becomes Treasure published by Ludion, is available to pre-order on Amazon now and in local bookshops from 8th October.

Katie Treggiden 

And then you worked with David David and Marc Jacobs on a couple of special editions with different upholsteries. Can you tell us a little bit about those two iterations of this collection?

Nina Tolstrup 

Yeah, so we did a collection together with David David, using their fantastic textiles, very bold prints that David David is designing and they had a connection with 19 Greek street, so Mark put us together. And we developed this series of chairs and sofas using that fabric that was designed specific to the show we made. So that was how that came around. And then Mark wanted us to do something for Milan, he had a contact to Marc Jacobs at the time, as he had previously done interiors for his jobs. And I was toying around with this kind of like, because it was the frame was upcycled, but you know, but we had used craft fabrics before, which is, I mean, obviously ticking all the boxes for sustainable textile production, but it’s still new textiles. And similar, I mean, David David we worked with, it was laser printed, so it was made to order so there was no waste, you know, because we knew exactly the amount of fabric we needed. So that was another way of kind of controlling at least, that there was no waste in the way the fabric was made for the collection we made. But I was still toying with the idea because the chairs were upcycled – couldn’t we do something using that kind of offcut fabrics, and then Marc Jacobs made a really beautiful collection that spring at Milan. And we’ve got the option to use his, what they call in the fashion industry, end of line, you know, fabric. So I’ve got a list from his head office of what they had, of like, God, whatever is in America, you know, like 10 yards of that, six yards of this and whatever, you know, your whole list of what they had leftovers from the collection of the different textiles. And so we used that and made these amazing, beautiful colour fabrics. And then that was shown in Milan in his flagship store, during the Milan Furniture Fair. And then subsequently because of how it goes, in the old days now, New York Design Festival comes in October, some months later than Milan. So then it was shown in the New York store. And it was quite fun because obviously you had the dresses and the you know, the mannequin and the chairs in the same fabric. So it was, it was a fun project.

Katie Treggiden 

And how did people react to them? Kind of both in the UK and in Milan, and in America? How did they go down?

Nina Tolstrup 

It went down very well. I mean, it was extremely well publicised and a lot of attention and press about them. They were very, I mean, fun and full of character and colourful – they went down very well. But I mean, the thing is that there were obviously very limited editions, you know. So it was not I mean, it was what it was, it was gallery pieces.

Katie Treggiden 

And what happens to these chairs at the end of their, I’m sure very long and happy lives? Can they go back into the circular economy? Can they be taken apart and turned into other things?

Nina Tolstrup 

Yeah, I mean, they can…. like I did, you know, you can reupholster them. Or you can take off the seats and redesign the seats. In the back they’re kind of loosely, just screwed on to the metal frame. And of course like, I picked them up – I mean, I guess they can go into a recycling scrap metal and be disassembled if they are ending up down that line – that they have no value as a chair. But I mean, they can definitely have a very long life. I mean, reupholstered and also redesigned if someone wants to do something different. Why not?

Katie Treggiden 

And how do you think people’s opinions are changing towards this idea of using waste as a raw material, towards a sort of properly circular economy rather than a linear process?

Nina Tolstrup 

I think it’s very, very positive. I think that everyone is very, very keen to make sure that we are entering into a circular economy. And I think as a designer, and I mean for whatever you create, you know, I mean you want things to be attractive, you know. It’s not like that kind of idea that it looks like something that’s been diy’d together, you know. It’s not about that, it’s actually that you recycle. I mean, when you’re in that, it’s a new material. You’re in fact, in the process of creating something that is fresh and, you know, desirable. It’s not like a second.. I mean, the idea is, is not a second grade material, you know. So that I mean, that’s what one is, is aiming at. So I think that it’s in a way it’s, it gets into not being a question. It’s a new product. And, and it’s, of course, you know, whatever, that things aren’t just in a circular economy, and it’ll be far from there. But it’s where we are going, and it’s where we know we can go.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, and I think that’s changed, hasn’t it? Because I think at one point upcycled pieces looked upcycled. And there was very much that idea that, you know, you’d have to compromise slightly, but you were doing something that was ethically valuable, whereas now, I think you’re right, there’s much more a case of waste just being seen as another material. And it’s just as good as any of the others and the outcomes are just as good in terms of quality than something that’s been made from new.

Nina Tolstrup 

Absolutely. It’s changed a lot. I mean, I have friends that work within, I mean, back in 02, that was also very early on organisation, engaged in these issues. And, I mean, they make clothes out of hemp, but it was like, a great idea, but it’s not fashionable, it’s not desirable. And I think that is whole thing, I mean, has changed. You know, I mean, a lot of these things are hugely desirable, hugely, beautifully made. So that has totally changed. And I think what has changed a lot also is that I found when I started out Studio Mama, that it was really difficult when you were working with companies and also being quite new in the field. And you know, ‘I’m really keen on working sustainable, and that, yeah yeah, that’s fine. So are we,’ and then many got to like, ‘ooh, can we change this? Can we do that? No, that’s cost too much. Or if you want to work with us, this is the deal.’ So it was quite difficult, you know, to push this agenda. It sounded nice, but the commitment was not really there. Because it was just too difficult, too expensive for the companies, you know, so it was not feasible.

Katie Treggiden 

And that’s when you’re working with manufacturers.

Nina Tolstrup 

Yeah. And I think that is, I mean, changed radically at the moment, you know, I mean, Skagerak – a Danish company that I worked with, for many, many, many years, you know, they’ve got C Corp registered in 2017. And I’ve worked really extremely focused, which is very interesting, because obviously, that being C Corp registered goes much broader than just about sustainable design, because it’s also about like, the human values in the company, and the well being of their employees, and all kinds of other very important issues that it goes hand in hand with something that is sustainable in the bigger picture than just a product as a company. Where there’s the human values are also very much a part of it, people’s well being. And they have launched, that you can hire their furniture they’re offering, they’re taking back their furniture, if people want, like the garden benches, they want new ones, and they take the old ones back, because the old ones as they’re so well made, so some people prefer just to buy a second hand old one. So they don’t mind, you know, so they have turned that into a circular economy. It’s all quite new, but it’s in place and they’re taking this initiative. And I mean, very inspiring. And so that’s great for me to work with. I mean, they have just a lot of knowledge, you know, when you work with these companies they have, you know, because as a designer, there’s a limit to how much we can do because at some point, it does go out of our hands, you know, it goes into production and factories, and you have to rely on companies doing things right. It’s, as I say, it’s a circle, you know, and as designers, we are a smaller part of that whole kind of a ecosystem, you know, and it’s been so incredible that things are really changing and makes it like I mean, so much easier for us as designers. It’s not like wandering around feeling really awful like creating things and knowing it’s not part of a circular economy or it’s not ticking all the boxes and not sure where it’s made and the conditions of the factories. And all that is transparent now and the companies are very keen to make it transparent. Where they are making it? Where it’s coming from? What their footprints are? And I think a lot of these things goes back to regulations, because it has to be working very much with the government putting down a set of rules, because that is just so effective in changing behaviours. I mean, the cost of putting things in landfill in terms of tax, has risen dramatically. I mean, I think it’s like it’s less than £194 or something at the moment per ton on landfill. But that has increased a lot. And that makes it very interesting for most factories to figure out, how do we reduce our waste? How do we recycle, because it’s a cost? And then all of a sudden, a lot of waste can turn into instead of being a cost, it turns into an income. This is amazing. I mean, I thought we were going to do a project with SCP for London Design Festival. I don’t know what’s going to happen. The London Design Festival has not been announced. But I guess it’s not going to be as we had expected it would be. But we went up to see SCP, they’ve got a furniture factory in Norfolk, and which is really charming, you know, a small team. I mean, they make all SCP’s upholstery furniture, very, you know, skilled local craft people, but all the waste, because we were going to do a project with that waste, it’s all going somewhere. I mean, like wood chips to the local garden centre, or I mean, whatever different groups, so in groups in the textiles. And I mean, there was no waste, really, I mean, maybe they sold it for 20p a kilo or something and then they’re more like, ‘maybe we can do something better than that – we can add value.’ So it’s not sold for 20p a kilo, but it’s sold for over a pound a kilo. But there’s all that thing that is happening, that waste has a value now. And you absolutely do not want to….because you have to pay to get rid of it. And all of a sudden, it’s like if you think about it, and that creates a whole new kind of industry, of companies that are running what you can do with waste, you know. I mean, I used to do pallet furniture also very early on as as an upcycling project, and that was pallets. That was I mean, that’s true system of pallets, but some pallets are already in an organised recycling system. And then there’s the pallets that are one use pallets, which was the one that I would normally pick up because you could just find them anywhere. But now there are companies that are coming to you and taking the pallets or buying them off, and they are, you know, they’ll either recondition the pallets, so they are back in the circle of being reused as pallets, or they will be bent into packaging crates, or they’re not wasted anymore, like they used to be. So I think everything has a value now and it’s regulation and taxation. Waste gets a value. And that’s, for me, an extremely powerful way to get into a circular economy. I mean, of course, there’s many ways, right ways to do it. But it’s just immediately has this effect that it’s a no-brainer for most companies.

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah. And I think that’s the dream, isn’t it, that we end up in a place where there isn’t any waste? You and I have spoken about the book that I’m writing that’s coming out in October, and one of the criticisms I’ve had is that surely, if people are making things from waste, that’s creating a market for waste, you know. It’s kind of encouraging people to make waste. And I sort of said, well ideally, none of these projects would have to exist, you know, but for as long as there’s waste, we need to do something with it. But you’re right, I think it’s increasingly gaining value and gaining profit potential, which is enabling it to sort of truly come into a circular economy. So if all this stuff is changing, what do you think the future holds for waste?

Nina Tolstrup 

Well, there will be no waste. I mean, ideally, I mean, that’s where the future is going. And I mean, of course, with a lot of these things, yeah, there’s a long way to go. The solutions are there, you know, so in a way, there’s no real excuse. We have to pay for whatever things costs and things have to shift, but it’s also about getting things into an industrial scale, where things are made possible. I mean, at the moment, there’s only 9% of plastic that are recycled. You know, and you think like, why? There’s no reason it’s not like 95% I mean, why is it just 9%? There’s a German company, Veolia, they can recycle expanded polymer, EPP, and that’s used in the furniture industry and also EPP is used the automobile industry. But all these things are in place. So it’s about logistics now. It’s about the collecting system. It’s about maybe limited that, of course, there’s so many different kinds of plastic. So some that can’t have a physical recycling stream should not be allowed. I mean, there’s enough plastic around to serve all different kinds of purposes. And then there needs to be a system. We know it can be done. I mean, so it’s just the logistics and the cost of it that is not really there yet. But the ‘how to do it,’ we know. And I mean, if you look at Kvadrat, they’re doing these amazing acoustic panels, building panels, textiles that was showed in I think it was in 2018, in Milan, that was created with us and Kvadrat, and the other they call….it’s called Really, anyway…that they have outsourced it’s called, Really. But yeah, I mean, that’s just an example because the textile industry is the second most polluting industry in the world apparently. So that’s a massive issue. But I mean, so within their company, they again, they’ve shown a way, and I’m sure that it’s obviously at the moment might not be a big part of their, kind of how all their textiles are ending up, but there’s a path. It could be part of a circular economy and they’ve invested in that, you know, so again, all these possibilities are there. So I think the way forward is very much that, you know, C has to cost what it costs. So as consumers we need to pay and the company has to pay and and all of a sudden when it gets up to a certain scale, it probably, I mean, wouldn’t it cost more the way we’re doing it now? Because landfill is, I mean, a disaster.

Katie Treggiden 

I think you’re right. I think there’s a way and we just need to make it happen. And I think, I think that’s a lovely note to end on. So thank you very much, Nina for joining me.

Nina Tolstrup 

You’re welcome. Thank you.

Katie Treggiden 

If you enjoyed this episode of Circular with Katie Treggiden, can I ask you to leave a review and perhaps even hit the subscribe button? Those two actions really help other people to find the podcast, so I would be very grateful. Thank you. Thank you to Nina Tolstrup, Gordon Barker for the edit, October Communications for marketing support, Sound Compound for the music, and of course to you for joining me. You’ve been listening to Circular with Katie Treggiden

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P.S. I am recording Season Two of the podcast now and the theme this time is repair. I really believe that people who make and mend with their hands hold the keys to helping us move from a linear ‘take-make-waste’ model to a more sustainable ‘circular’ economy. If you do too, I am looking for likeminded brands to help bring the meaningful conversations I know I’m going to have on this season of the podcast to a larger audience. Email me and I’ll send you more info on how you could get involved as a brand partner.