Circular Podcast – Season 3 Episode 4

Welcome to season three of Circular with Katie Treggiden, in which we’re exploring what it takes to cultivate a creative practice that enables you, your business and the planet to thrive. We’ll be diving deep into the nuances, complexities and paradigm shifts that we need to embrace in order to bring about a just transition to a more circular economy. 

[Trigger Warning: Matt mentions female genital mutilation (FMG) in this episode, so listener discretion is advised.] 

In this episode, Katie talks with Matt Hocking from Leap.eco, an award-winning design studio who has proven it’s possible to create inspiring work which delivers positive outcomes for people, planet and profit.

He has been passionate about working sustainably since long before it was cool. Every project he’s delivered doesn’t just meet a client’s business goals, it helps make the planet a better place – either directly or by changing the way a business thinks and works.

And he’s not kept that knowledge a secret, priding himself on sharing what he’s learnt with the industry – helping define and develop a model for sustainable design and working with creatives across the world to ensure design remains at the forefront of change.

He is committed to building a better future: one that is progressive, collaborative and thoughtful.

We discuss:

• Matt’s development of the Giving Budget, a model where, when you feel called to be generous, and to give something away, you can put certain boundaries around that to make sure that it’s a good thing.
• Why it’s important for Matt to not just run a design agency
• The fascinating role creatives can play in asking the difficult questions
• How creativity is one of the three pillars of the change we need in in the world for a better outcome
• The clients he has supported with the Giving Budget and the surprises along the way

Below is a transcript of our conversation. Find the full episode available to listen on Spotify here.

 

INTRO 

Welcome to season three of Circular with Katie Treggiden, in which I’m exploring what it takes to cultivate a creative practice that enables you, your business and the planet to thrive. I’ll be diving deep into the nuances, complexities and paradigm shifts that we need to embrace in order to bring about a just transition to a more circular economy. 

GUEST SNIPPET 

We were asked to empower the Women’s Cooperative at St. Catherine’s monastery to sell their own packaging and stuff like that. Now, I’ve actually been asked to design it and do it and I was like, well, that’s not empowerment straightaway. Let’s work together with that women’s cooperative and then let’s find a supplier that can do the printing within the region. I think I’ve always challenged status quo, I’ve never really looked, you know, the game for me, I always look at how do we empower communities? How do we empower individuals to take control? So we created templates together, which they can run off and do that. So I think it’s those little things where I’ve seen another window in the world. 

GUEST INTRO 

So Matt Hocking is one of those people that whenever I have a conversation with him, I come away with post-it notes or notes on my phone, about all these things I couldn’t should be doing around sustainability and running a business that is purpose driven. He is a brilliantly passionate human, full of ideas. And so I knew I wanted to get him on the podcast, but I wasn’t sure what we were going to talk about, because there’s just so much goodness coming out of that man. We had a bit of a pre chat and he mentioned this idea of generosity as a form of marketing. And I thought Ohhhh that’s interesting. And I think so often we’re told not to work for free, right? and there are very many good reasons for that. But Matt has come up with a model where, when you feel called to be generous, and to give something away, you can put certain boundaries around that to make sure that it’s a good thing. I won’t say too much more because we get into it in great depth in the episode, so enjoy and let me know what you think. 

 

GUEST INTERVIEW – PART 1 

Katie Treggiden   

Matt, thank you so much for joining us on Circular with Katie Treggiden. Can you start by telling us a little bit about what you do, who you are and how you ended up where you are?  

 

Matt Hocking   

Yeah, well firstly, thank you Katie for having me on today. So yeah, for my ADHD mind, that was already quite a lot to take in so you might have to prompt me again at certain points. So Matt Hocking just turned to half a century, in age and for the last 30 years have been designing. Not always for change, originally it was just design for payment and showing off what I could do in the creative world. But since 2000, I’ve been what I call designing for change, so using my design skills to sort of make a living making a difference, kind of working with social and environmental issues, challenges projects to amplify, you know, what they’re saying and what they’re changing the world they’re trying to sort of manifest. Small agency now, so I started off as a freelancer in his bedroom with the idea of graphic design with the environment in mind, everybody told me it would fail, how can you only design for the planet and you know, what a client is going to think and I don’t know, I’ve never run a business this is what my values tell me is the best way to do. Design is a huge tool change. So there’s now 12 of us at the base in Truro in Cornwall and sort of you know, designing from small startups to huge global organisations, you know, just finished a really awesome project on Independent Living with IKEA and the Big Lottery Fund on you know, independent living for young people. So yeah, what have I missed there though Katie?  

 

Katie Treggiden   

I think that’s a pretty comprehensive answer. Now before we started recording Matt told me that he hates his LinkedIn profile, but I think it’s brilliant. So I want to read it, it reads like this… 

Creativity, change-making, social and environmental innovation through design. Mentoring, thought leadership, ideation, connecting, getting the job done, B Corporation Ambassador, B Leader, creative sustainability consultant, Cafe Disruptif advisor, board member of FinalStraw, Co-Founder/director Goodfest. Ex-board Community Power Cornwall & Zoop. NED. Boardroom2030.  

I mean, I’m exhausted just reading that but I think it does, it does speak to the fact that you are someone who does a lot of things and is constantly busy, and always says, yes, when someone asks you to come on a podcast, or whatever it is. So tell us a little bit how all those different pieces fit together and why it’s important to you not just to run a graphic design agency. 

 

Matt Hocking   

Yeah, a great question I said is, it’s like, funny enough, as you read it back to me, it’s kind of like that the ADHD mind that I’ve got, you know, my mind’s like a human pinball. I wasn’t diagnosed as a child, it’s adult diagnosis. And it’s very powerful for me in how it works, you know, being able to do multiple things, not multitask, but just be able to juggle lots of different things and have them in their sort of compartments with a fair bit of ease. And I guess, you know, I’m an okay, designer, you know, people will say, No you’re more than that. But it was, it’s the relationship in design and the relationship with the planet and looking, going against the grain that people were interested in with me. And design is just this you know this nexus, this bridge between, you know, society, industry, planet, and future. So when things cross our paths, it’s the way my brain looks at it is it isn’t just, Oh, somebody’s asking for a brochure, a book, a brand and things like that. That’s one pathway I look at, hence, I use the term pastmind. I looked at multiple pathways through that landscape that involve social capital, our people, and natural capital of the world around us, it provides us with everything that allows us to do the thing we do in life. And so that’s kind of all these things, they seep over. And if I hear a good idea, I’m a very stubborn creative and I think use the term as well stubborn optimist, but if it’s a good idea, why not try it and see if it works, or it doesn’t. Goodfest was just a great idea to have a, you know, creative conversations on the beach, gathering of people from in the county outside the counties and spend two days just having brilliant conversations about change, in whatever level of business they’re in, and there was loads of us behind it. But then, you know, after a while, lots of people as normally happens, you know, they sort of drift off and there’s four of us left and it’s a really good idea. Should we just do it right? We’ve got no money, we’ve got no this, but we just got will and the intent and there’s a wonderful little book called The Path Of The Doer, I don’t know if anyone’s seen it, it takes like five minutes to read but it’s based around the idea that 99% of ideas never go into action and only 1% of individuals take those ideas and those brilliant thoughts forward. So I’ve always been, let’s just do it and figure it out. So everything that you heard there is more been like a graphic design solution. Somebody said, Oh, we’re facing challenges of our times we can’t get through the day, we can’t even think about the environment. And I was like, Oh, what about if I held a Boardroom 2030 we imagined that it’s 2030 and we all gathered together, which obviously, UK and together, so I put it out there and then figured out once I told everyone, we’re going to do it, how the hell I was going to do it. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

It’s often the best way, right? 

 

Matt Hocking   

Yeah. And we didn’t know if it worked. We didn’t know if people will come we did a pay what you will kind of thing. Some paid great, some people like not at all and didn’t value it. But the main thing is we did it, and it created a ripple chain. So over time, I would say I’m in the industry of changemaking and it’s although design is our entry level, it’s more around kind of, you know, creating change everywhere, in any way we can. And I’ve realised that as a designer, you know, we’re really friendly, we’re really smiley, people love us and so we can get in there, and then we can play for the , “So what are you doing about the fact that you’re paying below the living wage? Or what are you doing, about the fact that you have more vehicles than you need for your small team” and stuff, so and so I have these really interesting conversations. And luckily, people seemed to listen to me, even though I can be quite erratic and they seem to trust me as well. So I’ve actually, I guess, I’m breathing into that more Katie and just going actually, this is what’s showing up on for me, let’s take this opportunity to I’m being invited to sit in front of the stock exchange in Guernsey that do it and then I’ll figure it out. So yeah. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

I love that idea of designers being able to kind of sneak into places and positions because they are seen as kind of friendly and creative, and not necessarily combative. And then once they’re there, start asking those difficult questions, I think that’s a fascinating sort of role that creativity can play. 

 

Matt Hocking 

Totally. And, you know, and I am so adamant that creativity is one of the three pillars of the change we need in in the world for a better outcome. And what re the other two? Finance and law, which is two areas I’m not strong in. But law, law isn’t strong enough to protect our planet at the moment and I would like to see organisations like Ecocide to even going further than what they’re doing. To get to a stage where if we can’t do it, because we believe in it, like you and I would do that it becomes mandatory, which you know, that will become a problem in itself. And finance, because so much of finance is tied to fossil fuel, and degradation and attractiveness of our planet, and not, not an equity, and balance, which like a shared prosperity for the people of this world. And so, if we can unlock even our individual power of our pound, dollar, whatever you want, your place in the world is, that’s where I think it’s at. And I think those three things in unity will kind of create this shift, in my limited perception. And, you know, you’ve probably heard me talk about, you know, our pensions are 21 times more powerful for creating rapid climate change, positive climate changes, supporting a better future, than switching to renewable energy becoming vegetarian, and switching to an electric car, you know, because of the trillions of finance that are out there. Again, you know, somebody will say, Oh I wouldn’t expect a designer to be talking about it. But by design, that campaign, Made My Money Matter, can make people aware, and we used at the stock exchange in Guernsey. And at the start of thing, they were like, well, this is the way we do finance, it’s always the way we’ve done finance, and then we talked about Make My Money Matter then by the end of it, they were like, oh, we should do it, shouldn’t we, we should make this change, whether they will or not, who knows? 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, but these are the conversations that we have to be having. So I really want to talk to you. And the reason I brought you here today is to talk about your giving budget. Now, I think most of my listeners, most of the members of making design circular will be familiar with 1% for the planet, which is where you donate 1% of your turnover to environmental causes. I think that’s a fairly well known model now. There’s also the concept of sort of tithing, which is very familiar in religious circles, a lot of people would give 10% to the church, for example, and that would be redistributed amongst people who need it. But you’ve come up with the idea of a giving budget, which is where you’re taking, well you explain the giving budget because I’m fascinated by this as a marketing tool, more fun and ethical than spending money on Facebook ads or Google ads or whatever it might be. 

 

Matt Hocking   

Well, again, just like my own business career, Katie, it’s a little bit accidental. You know, it’s kind of like, we all do free stuff. There’s always somebody asking a creative can you do this or friend that saying, help me do this. You know, and a lot of people don’t actually value how long that creativity takes or how much industry knowledge and training, we’ve got to do it and you know, so at the same time, I wouldn’t want my creativity and a fee to be a barrier to get something great done that would support society to the planet. And when I first set up Leap, I had zero clients. And so I was just I left Eden, I bought a laptop, and then it’s like, alright, so I’m going to do this, you know, Leap it was always been Leap, and it was always design for change. How do I get clients and my first thing was to choose a couple of organisations that might need a bit of creativity. And so I had the Hope charity, a a homeless charity in Exeter, I had Cornwall Sustainable Tourism project, and I basically approached those organisations said, “Hey this is what I’m doing. I’m doing graphic design with the environment in mind” and then they were basically Okay, so Hope we’re like, yeah, we’d love a bit of your, you know, kind of free work kind of thing, where we just did that as a free transaction in return for them talking about me. Interesting with Amanda Brickman from Coast. I don’t know if you know, Amanda, but would be brilliant person to have some time to talk to herself. So Amanda, I pitched my business, really sceptical about was there a graphic designer did this, and, and she does sustainable tourism surgeries. And then from there, she contacted me in the evening goes, Oh, my God, you’ve written about it, your transparent that you are making a difference. I’m going to switch all my work to you can I commission this? And I said, Yeah, that’s fine, I’ll do this for free. And she’s like, No, no, you need money you’re a startup, you know, and she wouldn’t have it so she paid me. But what I did is I paid her thing on forward. So what she paid me, I paid that on forward to help others. And that’s a start in basically month one of Leap. And it was just a pot of money that at the time, it was just like, I’ll pay that on every month, that same value, somebody can have something for free, that is making a difference. But as time went on, and people were starting to hear about it, I kind of had to, you know, start evolving it and looking at who was I really working with, you know, everybody wants free design. And actually, it wasn’t also creating relationships, it wasn’t creating return. Not that I was looking for return. But I’d hoped that people liked me enough in that transaction of greenness to kind of like go, I want to work with you more, but they will go to the next free creative. So that’s where the idea of like, like reframing, what was it? So kind of looked at it, it’s like, alright, so I don’t do marketing, and I don’t really, you know, it’s all about relationships, people me, how do I reframe what I’m doing while still giving back to say thank you for the creative journey that I’m on that people believed in me in the early days to take me to the business I am now that so became our giving budget. And the giving budget is all around, it’s 5% of our turnover. So again, we didn’t know what we’re giving, in some years, it’s been higher, it’s never been lower. And but now we’ve got an open page on our website so it’s 5% of our turnover, no matter as pro bono creative hours to support social environmental change. You can use it only once, and people apply for it so you know, over the years, I was just I’m a heart based person, I just can Yeah, help you and help you and help you and help you. And our team, we’re finding it a little bit chaotic, So parameters came in, so that they felt like you know, they were we allowed them to choose, so we get lots of submissions now and we choose what’s going to create the most impact in the world, or what could also be quite fun and playful for us. And the giving budget, though, by naming it and really looking at it as an entity has allowed a conversation like this, it’s allowed us to impact report against it in a colourful story filled way, and I’ll talk about some of the clients you’ve got to work with in a minute. On top of that, it’s inspired other businesses going Do you mind if we take this idea, and I love 1% for the planet, the only thing I couldn’t do is 1% of the planet, and 5% or so, and the 5% so 1% I choose my charities that I’m sure that my turnover would go to, 5% I can we can do whatever we want with that 5%. And the ask from the clients is as well as putting a brief is that we have complete creative freedom, which they say we’re going to have creative freedom, they sometimes fight back against that. So it’s really trust us because we’re not going to do something so silly it’s of no use, it’s not a glory project for us. But it’s like it partly is there to stretch our skills and do more playful stuff than some of the more gnarly, kind of, you know, reports and stuff we do, climate breakdown and change. And then the other side of things is a minimum of 10%. So we found that very early stage, when we’re doing it completely free, there was no relationship and some people would use it and then we’d never hear from them again or they’d start a journey with us and then just you know, they didn’t have a value to it so it just kind of elongated rather than a month thing. So by putting money in there, it creates a more you know, sealed transaction, we lead them in a space where it goes forever. So Surfers Against Sewage was one like this. Brilliant brief 2017, three pages of brief got to the bottom budget of £1000, and I was like, it’s a £10,000 project. But I said to Hugo, I love you, love what you do, I’m going to do it, but let’s put some caveats on this. And by the way, if you really like what we do, how about next time you tell us what you’re going in for funding bid for and maybe we could be a partner. And that’s what happened 17.34 politically communities, the Design for Change School programme, we’re a partner and so everybody to define that budget. Going back to that, so the idea is that with the money that we do get it’s got commitment, but then it does go back into it means we can extend the life of the giving budget as well. And then as we got more strategic, because around the time I became a B Corp, so 2015, B Corp is asking us questions about those pro bono activities and what’s the client breakdown of the third sector? Is it for profit? Is it B Corp? So you kind of start drilling and going, oh, yeah, what is it for and so every year, we kind of got better at the giving budget. And it looks like it’s always there we don’t expect to return, but there is a hopefulness that maybe just maybe they like us enough. And that’s really metamorphosis now. So we, to the extent that we’ve started to call out, like, I wanted to work in seagrass because eight times more carbon sequestration, we’ve surrounded by seagrass in our region and things really important part of them, you know, bio habitats, and future high level carbon sequestration on a global level, creating natural environments. So we just put it out there so we’ve got a grant for good, we’re really looking for seagrass partner and, you know, Ocean Conservation Trust came along and said, Oh wow we want to do this, you know, so it’s a full branding website and investment projects called Blue Meadows that we worked on, then that’s led on to us working with the Ocean Conservation Trust Partner, which was around the World Ocean Race, and now working on all their stuff globally. And then Ocean Conservation Trust said that we love you so much, can we retain you for two years. And that was unexpected, but that is the thing, so again, they loved our giving budget, they love the difference. They love the fact that we aren’t marketing ourselves in traditional ways, which are kind of just hit and miss to a certain degree, you know, how much do you pay a Google ad? But for me, it’s always about stories and actually, if anything is the most prized filled space in the business, I get the biggest love, and possibly the biggest pushback from our team about the giving budget, because our team will have a profit share in the business and they see as to a certain degree, we’re working for free and it’s taking, you know, a good portion 5% of our turnover towards it. But as I explained, traditional marketing is 10% of your turnover to marketing techniques. So actually, I’m saving some money, and we’re doing some enjoyable work. And we got to work with some stellar organisations from around the world from the Makhad Trust in the Sinai desert with a Jebeliya Tribe. Two years ago, Bethel Abera contacted us to see if we’ve work on a project called Hidden Scars, which is horribly about awareness of female genital mutilation in the UK. And so we’ve been working with Bethel to kind of bring that into space and working with the orchid project and where it ended up being a film between a cutter, meeting a woman, a young woman he cut, you know, when she was a child, kind of in that restorative justice sort of space. So, you know, we would never normally got to do things like that. And it’s, it’s horrible that it happens to over 2 million women in the world and I didn’t realise until that how dominant it is in the Midlands in the UK. And so that awareness that ever learning, and again, the joy of design is to, you know, to learn, and not necessary create solutions, but to create creative support, so that that giving budget has been, you know, a really fascinating, exciting part of my life. And if anything I get actually get quite teasy if the team kind of sort of challenged me on it.

 

Katie Treggiden   

I think it’s really interesting. So just to recap, the sort of parameters you’ve put around it, it’s 5% of the turnover, as opposed to a traditional 10% of the turnover marketing budget. So using half what would usually be spent on marketing. And you know, with a marketing budget, you don’t get a return on all of that, right? There’s always a sense that you’re kind of investing things that may or may not convert. There’s an application process so people have to apply to take part so you can make sure that the clients you’re working with are the sort of clients you want to work with, the sort of projects and also as you say, you can put a call out to say “we really want a seagrass client” 

 

Matt Hocking   

and the impact of, how big will the ripple be? 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah. They can only use it once, which I think is brilliant. So that’s kind of they got to be a bit strategic about kind of do we use it for this projects, or do we wait and use it for this project? And they’re giving you, hopefully, complete greater freedom so that you can kind of have some fun and do your best work. But I think that’s really important to have, because I think there’s a lot of sort of, well, I think historically, as you say, creatives work for free a lot and are asked to work for free, I am still asked for work for free all the time. Or, you know, Can I buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brains for an hour, and it’s like three pounds doesn’t really cover an hour of consultancy. So I think that happens all the time. But then I think there’s also a lot of sort of chatter on the internet about don’t work for free, it’s unethical, it’s really bad, you must never do it. And I think this way of kind of having a model so you can say to people, yeah, we do work for free but these are the these are the conditions, enables you to kind of take on those projects that that you want to do but also, as you say, hopefully that leads to more impact or a recommendation for somebody else, or some work. So I mean, this sounds like a really stupid question I feel like we’ve already answered it. But how is that better than I mean, I’m assuming just buying ads, buying Facebook ads, kind of buying Google ads, buying ads in a magazine, doing direct mail, or the kind of traditional things would be easier, right? So in what ways is this better? I mean, you said you’ve never really done marketing. And so why is that? Why, why is this better than just doing traditional marketing? 

 

Matt Hocking   

I guess to a certain level, in my naive business head, you know, for me giving is a competitive advantage. I’m a as a service if you think about the five languages of love, that I’m a service person, you know, my mum ran a taxi business, I still love with our clients that picking them up to taxi to Goodfest and picking them up and take them to the event and stuff. And there’s something in there about service and but there’s also something around hope, hope that people will value and will see something. Not everybody, because that’s humanity, isn’t it? We’re all different doors of perception and action. But for me, bearing in mind that, you know, we’ve now given away probably of what would be 500, half a million in credit hours, if it was valued over 18 years and we’ve worked all over the world. And I’ve been invited to the Sinai Desert with a Makhad Trust and I may be going to Sierra Leone with Paller eye wear to see an eye hospital that we’re working to retrofit out there for, and fund optometrists. I get lots of amazing things that might not have come across anyway, it’s hard to know, because you only know the reality that you’re in. So these things, opportunities may have come but there are opportunities where I’m learning something and that’s the joy design is that learning. And I’m we’re here, you know, nearly two decades later doing something that people said just working environmentally, for people and planet, it wouldn’t work. And now lots of people will go, oh, that thing you did, and you’ve done that you were right, you knew what was coming. I was like, no, I didn’t care what was coming, it was right by my values. And so the giving budget is my sense of play, while becoming a bit more adult with that freebism. And slowly over my life getting a bit more strategic, you know, as I get more longer in the tooth. You know, one thing I didn’t mention is we always billed a client for the amount. So this is a great bit of strategy, which I can’t remember how I stumbled upon it but once you’re on some of these books, when sometimes you know, a new MD, CEO marketing person comes in, they literally go oh, who’s on a design roster, we need this to done or who are we paying for design. And so by, even though we will bill, to say it’s £10,000 project, that’s again Surfers Against Sewage, and we’re only billing them £1000, the invoice will say £1000 with £9000 gifted. That records into our finance system Xero, that then feeds into our impact reporting so we know the amount. Actually, we just done this year’s figures today, 6.1% was what we did with our turnover in the end. And so we’re on the books we’ve been paid so it makes it easier for a payment to happen and that transaction, they’re going oh that designer, they’re on our books, let’s do it. So and that has happened as well. And also, last thing is because people rarely  value creativity, you know, whatever that creativity painting a picture to creating a new ceramic design to graphic design. They don’t realise the time and the hours that go into making these things, so at least we’ve got a benchmark there since they come back and go, oh you know, that project you did for £1000. We want it again, we go that project was for £10,000. No we paid you £1000, yeah but if you look at the invoices, £10,000 worth of work. Oh, okay alright, we do want it and maybe we could have it would you accept £5000 or £750 or whatever and so we’ve got a new conversation there. So there’s lots of tendrils all working in the same way, we get fun, we get valued. The one time only, which we break the rules sometimes, the one time only makes that thing, it’s like that wish Aladdin’s lamp moment, not obviously not as brilliant as an Aladdin’s lamp. But, you know, we have given, you know, over £10,000 worth of creativity your way to organisations people. And I said, I’m intent on that giving budget carrying on and we’ve got many design agencies that have said no, can we can we have that and it’s yours, you know, it’s not mine to hold on to. It’s just, I reframed it.  

 

Katie Treggiden   

I think it’s really interesting, that idea of them paying the 10%. A, it makes them understand the value of it, and B gets you onto their books, as you say so there are many things out there that just get kind of tendered out to pre existing suppliers when you are them one of those pre existing suppliers. That’s really smart. 

 

Matt Hocking   

And Katie, I guess one other thing, because this happened with Innocent Foundations who is the charitable side of Innocent. So they had a budget of £5000 to do a website about their own giving. So they’re committed to, you might not realise when you drink innocent, but 10% of all bottle sales go towards ending hunger on the planet. So they then donate that which is roughly about 11 million that’s been donated over the last 15 years to charity, specifically dealing with hunger around the world. So their budget was £5000, we costed it up to be about £11,000 worth of work. So we basically said, we really want to work with you but your budget isn’t enough so we’ll top it up with our giving budget, and then What’s your giving budget? We explained the giving budget, they said, We don’t want to deprive others from that who are more needy, so we’ll put more money in. And so it was a completely different thing and we didn’t even expect that. We were going to do the work anyway, yet they topped it up, not to the full amount and we still went above and beyond. But it meant we had more to give to others and it was really brilliant a B Corp organisation like that saw that and it really made them think, we don’t know why their budget was so low, being Innocent, but I get some of these organisations they want every penny to go to the beneficiary.  

 

Katie Treggiden   

Interesting isn’t it, because you’ve framed it rather than just doing work for free, because you’ve framed it as giving budget, they were then able to see that by using more of that you’d be able to do less for somebody else. So I think that, I think that framing and articulation of it is important. And the other thing I think’s interesting is, we’ve spoken, in Making Design Circular about the B Corp process, I’m going through my own B Corp application at the moment and what is so much fun about doing the impact assessment is you sort of see all these questions and you think, Oh, I’ve, I’ve always wanted to do something a bit like that but I never quite have and B Corp sort of gives you the push to do it. So you’ve mentioned the Impact Report, which you’ve just produced, which is part of your sort of obligation as a B Corp, how does this sort of thing feed into sort of B Corp accreditation, and then improving your score over time? 

 

Matt Hocking   

So there’s quite a few different ways with the impact assessment depending on how you measure and how far you go into all the multiple questions within the five pillars of the, you know, the business impact assessment. So it’s an IBM one of them, an IBM has an impact business model, it’s something you’re doing in business, it’s different to a standard bottom line business. So if we look at someone like TOMS Shoes, if you know TOMS Shoes, if you buy one pair of their shoes, another pair goes to a developing country, and through that, you know a child, a person will be able to get to the job easier, get to school education easier. So that’s a that’s an impact business model. Our one is the giving budget, so that’s a minimum of 5%, it could be more some businesses do 20% you know, it’s depending, you know, what it is. Those percentage changes will give you more points with the impact assessment, should you wish to chase points, which I always say don’t chase the points, the framework is the important thing. The certification is just you get it, but you could use that framework in the entirety of your business life without ever having to pay the certification fee. And then one of our duties in the UK at the very least, it’s a bit different to other regions of the world that have different legal obligations around what’s called 31.10 Mission locking. So this is the bit you know, you would have seen it and I presume you’d get the 10 points because it would be quite easy for you to change that. “I’ve done it already!” well done and that’s what we want is people, businesses to do that with or without the certification so that the Better Business Act, for instance, is trying to change the legal structure in the UK that we all have to do that. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

So let’s just explain to listeners that you have a legal obligation as a business to act in the best interests of your shareholders, which is usually understood as to make profit. And one of the kind of first thing you have to do in the B Corp process and also the Better Business Association is trying to convince everybody to do this and make this law is that you can change your Articles of Association, so the legal kind of framework of your business, to say that you have a legal responsibility to act not only in the best interest of your shareholders, but also for people and for planet. So it’s that sort of triple line, business model, triple bottom line, which is people, planet and profit and it’s encoding that into law. So that if your company is bought by somebody else, or somebody else takes over as CEO, it’s sort of enshrined into your company’s articles of association at Companies House, that you have to act into the best interests of people, and the planet as well as profit. And it’s so simple to do. And, I mean, my accountant, I think, charged me a little bit of money for the paperwork. But it took no time at all, it costs very little and I think it’s a really, really important sort of statement. And yes, it’s part of the B Corp process but we’ve talked a lot in Making Design Circular about exactly what you just said that you don’t have to necessarily become a B Corp, you can just use the framework as a way to do better business. And I’m hoping eventually that it will become law that everybody will have to, you know, that all businesses will be set up this way. But I think that’s an interesting, you know, if you’re looking to just for just one simple thing to do, that is a very, very simple step to take a very serious one that obviously then has to be followed up on. But it’s, it’s not, it’s not difficult. Tell us a little bit about some of the clients that you’ve worked with using the giving budget, what are your favourite examples in terms of either the impact you were able to make through the campaign itself or then the long term relationship you went on to have with those clients? 

 

Matt Hocking   

Yeah, so I think I mentioned the Makhad Trust. So they are an English charity, that work with the Jebeliya tribe of 600 year old Bedouin Tribe in Sinai Desert, and also the Nuns of St. Catherine’s monastery in Mount Sinai. And so that was one of my first sort of big giving budgets, it was quite interesting because they were kind of also wanted me to come out into the desert, they were like do we bring the Bedouin to you so you can learn from us and I was like no, and I wasn’t thinking about going out there either because I’d just had two very little girls then in there sort of first one and two years kind of thing. But in the end, I did go out to the Sinai Desert, and it was really interesting. So with that, a couple of things happened. So we were asked to empower the Women’s Cooperative at St. Catherine’s monastery to sell their own packaging and stuff like that. Now, I’ve actually been asked to design it and do it. I was like, well, that’s not empowerment straightaway. And let’s, let’s work together with that women’s cooperative and then let’s find a supplier that can do the printing, you know, within the region. So again, I think I’ve always challenged status quo, i’ve never really looked, you know, the game for me, I always look at how do we empower communities? How do we empower individuals to take control? So we created templates together, which they can run off and do that. So I think this is all in my giving budget and I think it’s those little things where I seen another window in the world. And then I’ve just gone like, oh, wow, you know, from that, and then actually then I got invited to the desert. So that was they paid me in the end to go out there and work with the Jebeliya Tribe. With the increase in tourism in Sharm El Sheikh, all the desert water is being used so the tribes people were having to go deeper and deeper in the ground to get the water and that’s leading to lots of deaths and poisoning. We don’t see that we just see Sharm El Sheikh, yeah brilliant tourism but COP was It was devastating for the desert to have that there, let alone anything else. But so while I was out there, it was kind of like working with water aid, worked with the Jebeliya Tribe, I had have three days in the desert by myself, with just water, nothing else so quite a special moment. And I realised actually design wasn’t needed, what was happening is the tourists are coming into the desert and bringing the wrong things into the desert. So again, changing that design, it led to kind of how they, you know, reduce your footprint in the desert, you know, and what lots of people bring stuff for the tribes people but then the non-recyclable stuff that would just not break down and desert and the tribes people would just discard them, and so more litter, more plastic, so that obviously you can tell by the way I talked that was a really kind of amazing time and also on that trip some brilliant people like the Scilla Elworthy who headed up the ORG company, I’m not sure if you know Scilla, but the Oxford she founded the Oxford Research Group. And she wrote a book called The Business Case of Peace and at the time, she was working with Nelson Mandela and Richard Branson, she’d come out into the desert to power herself up to confront them on a few things. Which is amazing. Other things just like just helping little community groups so even locally, Three Bays Wildlife, a little, you know, but local volunteers just looking after beaches in our region, from anything from plastic to kind of wildlife and things like that. Just helping them and just seeing that logo out there. So yeah, I mean, other team members will probably have their own like, projects and things like that. And but one project that hasn’t happened yet, which I’m so hoping to my team are a little bit against it is when I cycled the COP, last year 26, there was somebody on there was, like, work with Crufts and pets and stuff when we were just like, riffing on the cycle right to COP. And we’re talking about, yeah, what it’d be like to do Dogs Declare a climate emergency and I was like, this will be amazing, let’s just put dogs in voting booths, and dogs, you know, photoshop dogs heads on to people striking with placards and stuff and if all goes well, we’re going to be launching Dog Declare at Crufts this year. But it’s a big risk, because they said it’s a very territorial space, and things, but that’s, that’s a, you know, that’s a given budget project. And before that, we launched Business Declares as a giving budget as well, an now Business Declares, we got a thank you the other day where they said, Can we have you in the Financial Times your logo alongside Riverford, that just for the work in helping us launch? 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Amazing. I love that Dogs Declare example, because it’s a way that I think, I think a lot of the time, environmentalism work can feel quite heavy, whereas that’s so playful and so fun but we actually still really get the message across.

 

Right, we have got, oh, no, one last question before we do our quick fire round. Which is, do you have any advice for anybody listening, who would like to set up a similar model within their business? 

 

Matt Hocking   

My advice is just look at what’s sustainable for you, everything comes from you and if you break you, then the rest of the change you want to make in the world won’t happen. Do you, look after yourself first, be valued, and, you know, be really thorough, a lot of people, you know, are takers and leeches in business, that sounds bad, there are brilliant people out there as well and I’m lucky enough to many of them. But, you know, yeah, just really be careful about how this this happens, this transaction, this agreement between you both, and do it in a way that kind of works for you, you know, what, I don’t know what we’ve got here in different skills and different crafts, and different ways of changing through creativity. But that’s all I’d say is, try it on someone and you know, your customers or best idea, or there might be somebody you really liked that you’ve never worked with, and just reach out to them and say, I love you and, you know, is there a way to work I’ve got, I’ve got this little thing that I’m trying it’s called whatever you want to call it Grant For Good, Giving budget, you know, and, and just wondering if there’s anything I can do to help you out. And you know, and that’s kind of how it happened before I had a name for it, it’s just asking those businesses and organisations that I really love. So keep it simple, record what happens, you know, and keep remote from it that you don’t expect it to, like, bring in the next big check or the next big client, but do the one thing I’ve been really weak on and still am, do have a parlay with that client, that giving client to say, We’d like you to kind of give me some exposure as well. So it’d be really great if when we’ve done this, if you could share this tag me. And so that’s the one bit we’re a bit weak on at the moment, we kind of do it, and then forget, and then it’s happening. So we got to get better. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

So get those testimonials, get those case studies. 

 

Matt Hocking   

Yeah, so that’s the only thing, like anything, just try it and if it doesn’t work for you don’t do it. But also compare it, if you are doing traditional marketing, which if you’re a product based business, that may work brilliantly, but some of the product based businesses I advise for are really struggling in these spaces and had to go back into very real conversations about getting themselves out there, from showcasing their shops, to their wares, to Yes, bringing in PR consultants to help them get into certain magazines and things. So what works for me might not work for you. But the fun of it is play with the idea to find a way that makes you joyful in what you do and makes you feel appreciated. And I said I call everything I do making a living, making a difference and you know, I loathe managing a business, but I love making a difference in a business. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, that’s really good advice to kind of look after you and make sure it’s sustaining your business and not kind of pulling from your business, and also to be experimental and just try things and see what works. I think that’s really important so you haven’t got to get it all right, first time. 

 

Matt Hocking   

Perfection, you know, everything’s perfectly imperfect. And I think, you know, my metrics are what is enough? And does it make me happy? You know, those are kind of the two things that I kind of, you know, I kind of sense to check in myself when I’m doing it. You know, and I do work long hours, you know, I do a 60 hour week, my team will go you don’t need to, I said I love what I do, though, so I’m always researching looking at different ways. You know, I’ve got my little side project, Good Fucking Eco Advice and at the moment, you know, I’ve got different organisations asking if I would do one for them so suddenly, I’ve got this happening. So I’m always always playing with different types of eco. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

I mean, I think when you when you do the sorts of things that everybody listening does you’re always switched on you even if you’re not, quote unquote, working your brains always mulling things over.  

 

AD BREAK WITH INHABIT 

We’re going to take a short break now to do three things. One, I want you to hear from Inhabit the brand partner for this season of the podcast. They’re actually the hotel I stay in when I’m in London, because they are super sustainable and absolutely gorgeous. I reached out to them and asked them if they would be interested in helping me make this season of the podcast happen and I’m delighted that they said yes, so there’s a short word from them. There’s a short word from me about making design circular, the membership group that I run, and I also want to talk to you about Surfers Against Sewage.  

So I am a member of 1% for the planet, which means that every year I donate 1% of my turnover, not profit, to an environmental charity and the charity I’ve chosen to partner with is surfers against sewage, which is a grassroots environmental charity that campaigns to protect the ocean and everything that the ocean makes possible. It was created in 1990 by a group of Cornish surfers fighting to clean up the sea that was making them sick. Now surfers against sewage campaigns on everything that threatens the ocean. Plastic pollution, the climate, emergency environmental exploitation and water quality by taking action on the ground, that triggers change from the top.  

If like me, you’d like to support surfers against sewage, head over to https://www.sas.org.uk/ and I will leave you now to hear a short message from Inhabit, a message from me about the membership, and then we’ll dive right back into this episode.  

Inhabit hotels, located in the Bayswater area of London, offers restorative environmentally and socially conscious places to stay in the city. Wellness and wellbeing also play a major part in the brand’s ethos Mindfully designed for the modern traveller everything at this new hotel has been considered with a genuine commitment to environmental initiatives and meaningful community partnerships. To find out more please check out our Instagram at inhabit_hotels.  

If you’re a designer maker, here’s what I want you to know. None of this is your fault. Climate change, ocean acidification, falling biodiversity levels, none of it. But you do get to be part of the solution. And the best part that gets to be creative, collaborative, and filled with wide eyed curiosity. Remember that? Visit www.katietreggiden.com/membership and leave your eco guilt at the door. Find a community of fellow travellers clear actionable steps you can take today and all support you need to join the circular economy. Visit www.katietreggiden.com/membership. I’ll see you there. 

 

GUEST INTERVIEW – PART 2 

Katie Treggiden 

Right quickfire rounds, best book you’ve read or listened to lately? 

 

Matt Hocking   

I’m listening to the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz and I’ve probably just said that completely wrong. It’s quite deep and it’s mired in sort of, like, First Nation, First People. Really it’s around believing in yourself and that love is the only true coin energy of life and that we have different agreements as we go through life. So we get into the agreement of the dream of the world to start with so you know, imagine, this is, you know 1000s of years old this way of being and that we agree because society is like it is because our parents tell it like it is when we’re a child, and it’s how to kind of create new agreements really to go against the things so you live your true life. That sounds great. But I heard it in a song first. So yeah, before agreements Don Miguel Ruiz. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Cool, we will put a link in the show notes. Favourite podcast apart from this one? 

 

Matt Hocking   

Of course, it can’t be your own brilliant one. There’s two really and again, it’s based on how what energy level I want to feel. So I love Christiana Figueres Outrage and Optimism because it’s so straight down the line and so raw, especially when Christina’s talking and things like that as well but it’s always very interesting, especially her talking about 1.5 degrees is not an option. You know, it’s got to be under it cannot be over. And then big fans of The Futurenauts that’s Ed Gillespie. Ed’s absolutely brilliant and just unpicking all the things that we know about about environmental life in a very witty way. I think the last thing somebody was saying that the way to save the planet is to have more sex I think they were talking about. Lots of other things, but Ed Gillespie is one of the directors of Greenpeace and used to be a founder of Futerra. And then it’s the comedian, I always get it whether it’s Jon Richardson, I think, yeah, so it’s them riffing basically about different things at any one time. Yeah, I’d love them to come to Goodfest one time. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yes. Finish this sentence circularity is…  

 

Matt Hocking   

Great if we truly are. There’s a lot of people talking circularity but there’s a lot, I’d say is nowhere near circularity. There’s not that many great examples of what is truly circular in my opinion. And I do worry that I think, I think Circularity has got more legs and power than other incarnations, like cradle to cradle and things like that so let’s see what happens. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Cautious optimism, one thing that you wish that sustainable designer makers knew? 

 

Matt Hocking   

That anything is possible to change, but is it sustainable to change? So sometimes in our search to find a new material that we feel was better for the environment it actually, because it’s travelled further or is in limited supply or something isn’t sustainable to us on the triple bottom line. So yeah, just really think about sustainability more in a holistic sense. I that I’m going to add one other thing on there. What I wish is we didn’t have to add sustainable to design, that it was we were just designers and we will all doing things sustainably.

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yes, yeah we’re getting there. Yes, best or worst life or business advice you’ve ever been given? 

 

Matt Hocking   

Most of the advice was don’t do it. Don’t listen to everyone. My accountant last year said somebody needs to get a grip on your business because it’s failing. And so I went, why is your metric of success and he went financial. And I said, How about we look at the fact I’m 18 years trading, we got a 96% retention rate, which is unheard of in the creative sector, that we’ve been going against the grain doing things for people and planet consistently, for nearly two decades. We never furloughed, we’ve never made a redundancy. So would you tell me that we are successful business or not? Aand then he just went, well money wise, you’re not. And I said, it’s not, that’s not the thing when we when we do our metrics by GDP. So I’d say it’s not advice but again, I don’t listen to the things I just keep on going while protecting. And the other and I always loved the Oscar Wilde quote, you know, be yourself because everybody else is taken. He didn’t tell me that I just love it. Bizarrely, Katie, I am not I’ve not really had much advice in my thing. You know, every business advisor said, Why are you doing that? You know, this business thing back in the day in 2004 and nobody got behind the things so it felt like I’ve always been this kind of lining loan crazy dancer if you’ve ever seen the loan dancer, TED Talk by Mark Scriveners. Yeah, that loan crazy dancer, but then it’s all about the first follower so yeah, just be yourself, everyone else is taken, believe in yourself, you know, have daily gratitudes all those things you read in those things that have been going on for 1000s of years by you know, First Nation people. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Amazing. Thank you so much Matt Hocking, thank you. 

 

OUTRO 

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed what you’ve heard, follow me on Instagram @KatieTreggiden.1 And if you’re a designer maker who’s interested in sustainability, DM me a little recycling symbol and I’ll add you to my close friends group, which is especially for sustainable designer makers.  

You might want to sign up to my E-newsletter via the link in the show notes. And it would be amazing if you could follow or review the podcast in whichever platform you’re listening on, that really helps other people to find it, so that’s super helpful.  

I want to say one last thank you to Inhabit my gorgeous brand partner for this season who have helped bring it to life and I also want to give a shout out to the Ko-Fi supporters from the initiative that we did in series two. So Kathryn Kernow, Bob Shankley, Eleanor Burke, Vicky Pulter, Leslie Curtis, Val Muddyman, David Clarke and Nolan Giles all bought me a virtual coffee to help with the production of season three.  

And last but not least, I want to say a huge thank you to Kirsty Spain whose production skills you are listening to as I speak.  

Thank you so much for listening.