Circular Podcast – Season 3 Episode 2

Welcome to season three of Circular with Katie Treggiden, in which we’re exploring what it takes to cultivate a creative practice that enables you, your business and the planet to thrive. We’ll be diving deep into the nuances, complexities and paradigm shifts that we need to embrace in order to bring about a just transition to a more circular economy. 

In this episode, Katie talks with Sarah Fox a coach and mentor helping organisations and individuals who are motivated to do good and do well, being drivers of positive social change. Sarah’s mission is to help people who care about the world to live a life of fulfilment, a life that is truly well lived, meaningful, purposeful and creative. 

We discuss: 

• Sarah’s strive to always do good and her journey with ‘kindness’ 
• What is means to be good, not just to the natural world but to ourselves. 
• Sarah’s values of kindness, compassion, cooperation, collaboration and courage (added during the podcast!)…and how these relate to our self-worth. 
• Why this group of people, who are working so hard to look after everybody else and bring about positive change in the world, find it so difficult to take care of themselves. 
• Do we need to learn to look after ourselves in order to look after the planet, are those things connected? 
• The importance of connecting with nature, observing nature in the human world and reminding ourselves of the bigger picture. 

Below is a transcript of our conversation. Find the full episode available to listen on Spotify here.

 

INTRO 

Welcome to season three of Circular with Katie Treggiden, in which I’m exploring what it takes to cultivate a creative practice that enables you, your business and the planet to thrive. I’ll be diving deep into the nuances, complexities and paradigm shifts that we need to embrace in order to bring about a just transition to a more circular economy. 

GUEST SNIPPET 

I think as business owners we need to be planning in those moments where you are fallow, or where you, where you do stop, because they are absolutely integral to us having these sustainable businesses. And the only people that can change that ourselves, is you, you decide on what works for you. 

GUEST INTRO 

Hello and welcome to episode two of season three of Circular with Katie Treggiden and in this episode I am speaking to a fellow podcaster, Sarah Fox. Sarah’s podcast is called Do Good and Do Well – How to be a changemaker without losing yourself. And I am so excited, slash a little bit nervous for you to hear this episode because Sara and I had a really interesting conversation about the importance of looking after yourself when you’re trying to do good. And there were lots of realisations I was having in this conversation. 

So I am practising what I preach and being vulnerable and sharing this with you. It very much wasn’t a perfect curated conversation, but actually something much more juicy and interesting, one that evolved and developed as we were talking. And the really interesting insight for me is that if you’re not looking after yourself, when you’re doing good, you can actually do harm. So have a listen. Let me know what you think. 

 

GUEST INTERVIEW – PART 1 

Katie Treggiden 

Hi, Sarah. Welcome to Circular with Katie Treggiden. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Hello, Katie. It’s so nice to be here. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Thank you so much for joining me. I thought I would start by asking you to introduce yourself and tell our lovely listeners a little bit about how you ended up doing what you do. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Yeah, okay, so my name is Sarah Fox, and I am a coach. I’m a mentor. I’m a mum to two children. I’m also a wife, I’ve got to fit that in somewhere else. And I’m a fellow podcaster, one of my favourite things to do podcasting. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yes, I will stick a link to your podcast in the show notes so if anybody wants to go and check that out, that will be in there. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Thank you.  

Yeah, so I say I’m a coach I work with freelancers, people working in organisations, primarily in the arts and cultural sector, although I also work in the education sector as well working with head teachers, and teachers and CEOs as well. But essentially, all the people that I work with are people who want to do some kind of good in the world, have a positive contribution. But they want to do that without sacrificing their own lives in the process and are struggling to do that. And the way that I kind of came about being a coach, I mean it was it was a bit accidental, in a way. I’ve always wanted to do good I suppose. You know, I’ve always been interested in volunteering, even as like a eight year old at school with have that like little patch of land that I’d say, “Oh, I’ll sort through the stones in the dirt” every lunchtime. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Was this a real job? Pulling your leg here? 

 

Sarah Fox   

I don’t know, maybe, like just put her in that little corner sorting through the sand. But yeah, I’d always kind of had this sense that I wanted to help in some way, I’ve got quite a big driver in me to, or that notices social injustice. And I suppose a kind of part of that context is that my dad was a disabled man and so I kind of grew up with a sense of seeing people who didn’t belong or who felt like they didn’t belong. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, for all sorts of reasons, also, I think, you know, the systems and structures have made to feel they don’t belong outside. Yeah, 

 

Sarah Fox   

Absolutely. So I, you know, I’ve always been super conscious of that. And then I decided to do a drama degree, because it was the only thing that I could, that I really liked doing at school, not on stage or kind of backstage supporting stage management type stuff. And got really into community and celebration and theatre and performance, that I really love that. Left uni did some weird data, entry stuff, which you know, there’s weird jobs you do when you graduate, but then eventually became a performing arts teacher, and did that for a couple of years and started to, it felt like how am I, what am I really doing is adding anything to this. And also, I didn’t like doing all the work at weekends and all the marking and the evening stuff so I was like this is not what I want to do.  

 

I ended up working as a community artist for a really big Housing Association. I did that for quite a few years, working in neighbourhoods where arts rarely existed, particularly with young people. Worked with a whole range of artists to bring arts into those spaces. That was about connection, it’s about belonging, it was about how we can use arts to kind of connect communities together really, build community. And then 2008 housing crisis got made redundant because the arts is the first thing to go, you know, ain’t always, always! So ended up, this tiny little job advert in the local paper for a project manager for an art charity that was all about kindness, and all about how we could use arts and creativity to build kinder and more caring communities. And I got the job. And I did that for almost 10 years, went from Project Manager up to, effectively, sort of Deputy CEO type role. Really, I was second member of staff that was a tiny channel, we grew it over those 10 years and eventually became a national portfolio organisation. As an Arts Council funding thing. And then at some point, I just, it just wasn’t serving me anymore and I was using all my kindness at work. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

None left for the weekend! 

 

Sarah Fox   

Literally, none left for my children and left my husband and left for the cat and the dog. And non left, for me, and I remember crying at my mom’s kitchen table one day and going like, I can’t do this anymore? I just felt it wasn’t the work, I loved the work. It was that it was it just, you know, going one minute from doing the mum stuff, and then the work stuff. And yeah, though, anyway, there was a lot to it, and I just thought, like, that’s it, I need to take a step back. I’m really fortunate that I could do that. I got an allotment, grew some veg for a while, faffed about, thought what am I going to do ‘oh, Ill do a coaching qualification’. Did that absolutely loved it realised that that’s what I’ve been doing my whole life is creating spaces for people to be their best. And then then set up my business in March 2020. I decided I’m gonna do it and then literally, a week later, global pandemic. So it’s amazing timing. Yeah, so that was a very long answer to your question. But it has been quite a long journey.  

 

Katie Treggiden   

It’s so interesting, though, isn’t it? How I didn’t know all of that. So it was lovely to have that kind of in depth introduction. But it’s so interesting how often when we find our calling, it turns out we’ve been doing that all along. And I think, I think I’m the same one of the things you said really resonated that idea of noticing social injustice. And I sometimes describe it that I still have that innate sense of fairness that I had as a five year old, that kind of it’s not fair, you know, not just, you know, towards myself, but towards other people. And I think kids notice that, right. Whereas as grown ups, we somehow, oh, well, life’s not fair, you know, whereas I’ve never really let go of that five year old sense of injustice. Yeah, and I think I’m the same. When I look back over my career, I’ve always been crafting stories and creating narratives, with the intention of bringing about change, and kind of making the world a better place. So yeah, that’s fascinating. So you talk about helping people to do good and do well, in your work. And I’d love you to unpick that phrase and explain what doing good and doing well. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Well, I’d recommend going and listening to the podcast because I have these amazing guests like you Katie who come on and share what you think. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

I was gonna say, I remember you asking me this question. So I’m gonna ask you. 

 

Sarah Fox   

So it’s kind of seems quite simple, I think at one level. I heard it, I actually heard the phrase on another podcast with a philanthropist. He was, he was talking and was kind, kinda saying, how, why do we feel like making money is really bad. Why’d you know? Why do we? Why can’t we do good and do well, so they were talking about it in kind of financial terms. But actually, I really liked that as well. Because I think both my own money stories, and what happens in the arts and cultural sector quite often is we have these narratives about money and about doing good. So it kind of came… 

 

Katie Treggiden   

and I think that’s combined with a sort of starving artists cliche as well, isn’t it? So when you kind of open up kind of doing good, and being in the creative sector, you’ve got all these money stories about how you know, earning is a bad thing.  

 

Sarah Fox   

Exactly, exactly. But I think over time, it is that and I think over time, there’s been lots of questions that have come up for me about well, you know, what do we mean by doing good? And who are we doing good to? Who’s good is it? But essentially for me the doing good bit is what it’s about it’s about leaving the world or trying to leave the world in a better place than you found it not being an idiot basically. And I was gonna think of a stronger word but I won’t on the podcast. But you know, really kind of stepping into what we can do that somehow contributes positively Yeah. And And whilst doing that, really thinking about how we do well based turn in terms of quality. But also in terms of our own well being and when I talk about wellbeing, I’m talking about physical well being emotional well being and financial well being. So how can we bring those two things together so that yes, we are making an impact of some kind and we’re doing that in a way that is conscious and, and we have a self awareness about that. But also, how can we do it so that we’re not breaking in the process, because so often I see change makers, and you know, people kind of reel at the idea of a change maker, but it is someone who, who sees where change is possible, and wants to contribute towards that. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

And so are people reel at the idea of a change maker, 

 

Sarah Fox   

I think, because it can feel I mean, this is what I notice my, observations, but it can feel a bit lofty, and it can feel like it can, maybe a bit worthy, maybe a bit grand, kind of saviour. 

   

You know, and also, so many people I work with, they are very self aware, and they are questioning the ethics around what they’re doing and the impact on others. So I think it’s, I kind of want to, I want to reclaim that idea of like the do gooders, the change makers, the do gooders, that we can do that on a micro scale, but we can, we can do that on a macro scale, if we’re all doing it on the micro scale, imagine the impact that we get. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, and we can do it in a way that is collaborative and respectful and is not kind of that quote, unquote, you know, white saviour as a phrase that comes up when that do gooding and can be really problematic. Absolutely. Which brings me nicely to your values, because I, I love the align, I was doing some research before we had this conversation. And I was just like all, I love the alignment between our values. So I mean, I don’t know if these are technically your listed values, but I stole these words off your website. Let’s go check them, kindess, compassion, cooperation and collaboration. Yeah. Which is really interesting, because I run a membership group called making design circular, and our values are imperfection, curiosity, connection, and stubborn optimism. And I just love the way those words kind of knitted together. And you talked about obviously, that job where the word kindness kind of popped out of that job description. So how do those values show up for you and why are they so important in your work? 

 

Sarah Fox   

It’s funny listening to say those because I think what’s really missing, there was courage,so I might go back and add, I’m gonna add coverage in. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

They also begins with a C or a K so fits in with the alliteration perfectly. 

 

Sarah Fox   

I think kindness has always been really important to me. I’ve had a really weird relationship with kindness over the last couple of years because as I say, I think I kind of ran out of it a little bit. And I felt like, I felt like I wasn’t really using, I wasn’t really using kindness as a way of helping others. It was about making myself feel better because I’m being kind. I am fulfilling a need in me as opposed to feeling like I’m enough and supporting others. 

Katie Treggiden   

That kind of people pleasing verses the genuine kindness. 

 

Sarah Fox   

The niceness, quite yet. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, the kind of nice girl thing. 

 

Sarah Fox   

But I think if we look at the I think the kind of origins of the word kindness come from kin, which means family. And so when we look at it that way, I also see kindness as a really active word, you know, it’s a doing, it’s doing. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

It does require courage. I have a little motto sometimes, which is, if in doubt, be kind. And the amount of times I’m hovering about whether to do something, and I could easily bottle it and think, oh, no, I just won’t, it’s easier not to I won’t, you know, I won’t risk embarrassing myself, Iwon’t. And then it’s, if in doubt, be kind. And it does require courage sometimes to risk making a fool out of yourself to do something for somebody. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Yeah, it does. But I think one of the things I think we need to be really aware of is that it’s not coming from a place of people pleasing, which is what you’ve just picked up on that. Yeah. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

And that sort of scarcity.  

 

Sarah Fox   

It’s about well, if I do this, it might come as a cost to me, but it will, people will think I’m really nice. And I’m a really nice person. 

 

 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, or I kind of I feel somehow unsafe and if I do this kind thing, it kind of, you know, means that person will have to offer me that feeling of safety. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Exactly. Yeah, I have value in the world. I have self worth because I’m a kind person. So I think, you know, I kind of and I think what often happens and this is the important bit for me about kindness, I think and those values and how it shows up. It’s as much about being kind to ourselves, as it is to everybody else. And if we can, if we can hold up a mirror, if we can talk to ourselves in the way that we talk to other people, if we can take action, and be kind to ourselves in the way that we are with other people, then I think the world would be a much better place, because it’s coming from people feeling like they are enough already, without having to do all the things.

 

And I think, you know, the idea of connection is really important, because I think my feeling is, we can’t do anything, but we can do things by ourselves. You know, it’s much better when we do things together. And again, that kind of linking to the kin with the family, that connectedness, that feeling of belonging. And again, you know, that comes with full connection, collaboration, cooperation, it’s like, how do we do things together? My email address is andSarah@sarahfox.co.uk. And the reason I did andSarah, was because I, it felt like we work alongside each other, but who I work with, we are alongside of each other, alongside each other, I’m alongside you, and I’m supporting you. I’m not doing it for you. I’m not behind you, like pushing you forward, I’m right alongside you. And I think if if that we, if we can all come together with that sense that we are alongside each other. Then it feels to me that feels more interesting and powerful. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

There’s a phrase in the social justice movement, which that reminds me of, which is nothing about us without us. And I love that idea of it. And I think that helps move you out of that kind of saviour thing, which is, you know, aren’t I good because I’m helping these people over here. It’s like, No, this has got to be something that’s done with people together. Yeah, absolutely with and not to, I like that.  

 

So you’re talking about this idea of being kind to ourselves as well as to other people. And there’s this sort of idea, another sort of phrase, which is you can’t pour from an empty cup, right? So you’ve got to fill your own cup first, and then you can help other people. And one of the things you and I have talked about many times before, is that the fact that the people, we both work with, people who are trying to do good in the world, find that really hard to kind of show up for themselves and make time for themselves. Why do you think that is? Why is it that this group of people who are working so hard to look after everybody else and bring about positive change in the world find it really difficult to take care of themselves?

 

Sarah Fox   

I think what I notice is that, that so often, that comes from a narrative of the world that we decided on when we were small. You know we decided that we wanted to help people because it felt good, it feels good, you get the helpers high right when you when you are kind to other people. But I think it comes with a whole load of other unhelpful stories. If we think about our scripts that we have. So in transactional analysis they talk about, which is kind of a communication theory, It talks about from the ages of birth to seven, that’s where we make decisions about the world and those narratives, those stories stick with us. So everything we try and do we do to make the world a familiar place. And I think that often, is what I was saying earlier that it’s not always, but often that really wanting to help is because it somehow makes us feel better, valuable, gives us a self a sense of self worth, and helps us to feel like we belong. And there’s also I think there’s a whole load of conditioning that comes with that as well. Like I think that there is feelings that it is selfish to think of ourselves, that in some way we are not you know as a parent, for example, it we are we are kind of conditioned to feel that we have to put the child at the centre of everything, and that we don’t get to fulfil our own needs of parents. But actually that model is something that we don’t want for our children. But I often think that when I am really struggling with the idea of doing something for myself, if I’ve got that it’s selfish, you’re being needy, whatever, whatever whatever inner critic mean, mean girl, I will think what do I want for my daughter? But what do I want? What would I want her to feel and think and believe? 

 

Katie Treggiden   

and see modelled right? 

 

Sarah Fox   

And see modelled, yeah. And so I think we have the story out there, the conditions out there are if you are someone that does good, that means you work really long hours, you put everybody else’s needs above your own, and you are not in any way selfish. But we’re human. We’re nuanced. You know, we are complex. So we are all of it. Yeah. Don’t know if that answered your question, but there’s a lot, there’s our own individual experiences of the stories we were told when we were younger, things we experienced things we witnessed. And then we’ve got this whole other world society system structures telling us how we should be.  

 

Katie Treggiden   

Particularly for people socialised as female, right? Because, you know, there’s a, I think it is in the book Burnout by Emily and Amelia Gorski and they talk about the difference between human beings and human givers, is that how they phrase it? Yeah, this idea that one half of the species is existed to is, you know, been created to fulfil their potential as humans and just be, and the other half have been sort of created to support the needs of that half. And, you know, through throughout history, women have very much been in that supporting role and so for us, then to say, actually, I want to do this thing just for me. 

 

Sarah Fox   

I want to have boundaries, I had someone on my podcast recently, lasagna Lizandra Leigertwood, who’s a psychotherapist, and she talks a lot about boundaries. And I love her description of a boundary is where I end and you begin, and there’s like a space in between. And I think I really want the people I work with to have these really healthy boundaries, because I think my feeling is if you can have healthy boundaries, if you can be enough and step into who you want to be, then we can have a much bigger impact. Because if we are giving, giving, giving, giving, we will feel depleted, we won’t have any energy, we will feel resourceless, and we want to feel resourceful.

 

Katie Treggiden   

And I think also going back to what you were saying earlier, if the motivation for helping doing good changing the world is coming from a need to make yourself feels safe or feel enough, there’s a danger that that’s not necessarily then going to be delivered in the best way for the recipients of that care or benefit or whatever, right? Because the priority is going to be making yourself feel safe, or enough. Whereas if you already feel safe and enough, then you can really focus on delivering benefit in a way that most benefits the people you’re trying to serve.

 

Sarah Fox   

You’re not taking your stuff into that because as a coach I have therapy, I have supervision all the things, because I need to understand myself really, really well. So that I’m not bringing my stuff into your space. Yeah. Because this is your space, your you know, as a coachee or as a mentee, this is your space. Yeah. So it and it’s a better space for me, kind of I mean, of course I share my own experiences and kind of, but I need to understand myself. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you see that in a lot of the kind of discourse around, you know, white Saviourship, and white tears and all this sort of thing, if that person is being an ally, to people of colour in order to make themselves feel better, and in order to make themselves look good. They’re not actually helping, they’re not actually being an ally. And so yeah, my next question was, why is it particularly important that change makers that you work with and the designer makers who are working towards a circular economy that I work with, take care of themselves? And I think we’re starting to answer some of those questions. It’s not only so that they can be resourceful and fulfilled and do more good, but actually, it’s also so that the good they’re doing is clean of kind of all this stuff that can sometimes be motivating it. Which is not to say that you shouldn’t get a huge amount of fulfilment from this work, right? 

 

Sarah Fox   

You know, there’s a whole load of research, well, there was the stuff I was reading quite a few years ago, but around kind of, can anyone really, truly be altruistic? Because actually, often it’s about what we’re getting back in, in exchange. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, I think actually, but again, it’s that coming from a place of awareness that this is this is what I would like to get back. And that it’s somehow I don’t know if it’s like a fairness it in its exchange. But yeah, I just think we have to be so aware of not accidentally doing harm, because of this story we have in ourselves, this narrative that we follow around doing good. And I think if we can, if we can really build that sense of self compassion and self kindness and think about the way we talk to ourselves as well, then that, again, kind of, well, it fills the cup. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, yeah. And I think there’s something in the fact that you can get fulfilment and benefit from doing it but that should almost be a bonus, you don’t need that it’s not conditional. It’s really interesting. I do a litter pick with my dad, once a month, with the Marine Conservation Society near where I live. And I do it because I want to spend time with my dad, do you know what I mean? It’s a lovely way for us to spend an hour doing something else, which is often a lovely way to have proper conversations with people, isn’t it? And sometimes, because we wear high vis jacket, sometimes people will stop us and say thank you. And the first time it happened, I was like, Oh, you’re welcome. Like it didn’t really occur to me I was doing anything for you. I’m just having a nice time with my dad. I like think there’s something quite lovely about that, you know, the side effect is we’re taking litter off Cornish beaches, and we do a couple of kind of environmental volunteer things together, because that’s something we’re both quite interested in. But for me, my main motivation is hanging out with my dad for an hour. 

 

AD BREAK WITH INHABIT 

We’re going to take a short break now to do three things. One, I want you to hear from Inhabit the brand partner for this season of the podcast. They’re actually the hotel I stay in when I’m in London, because they are super sustainable and absolutely gorgeous. I reached out to them and asked them if they would be interested in helping me make this season of the podcast happen and I’m delighted that they said yes, so there’s a short word from them. There’s a short word from me about making design circular, the membership group that I run, and I also want to talk to you about Surfers Against Sewage.  

So I am a member of 1% for the planet, which means that every year I donate 1% of my turnover, not profit, to an environmental charity and the charity I’ve chosen to partner with is surfers against sewage, which is a grassroots environmental charity that campaigns to protect the ocean and everything that the ocean makes possible. It was created in 1990 by a group of Cornish surfers fighting to clean up the sea that was making them sick. Now surfers against sewage campaigns on everything that threatens the ocean. Plastic pollution, the climate, emergency environmental exploitation and water quality by taking action on the ground, that triggers change from the top.   

If like me, you’d like to support surfers against sewage, head over to https://www.sas.org.uk/ and I will leave you now to hear a short message from Inhabit, a message from me about the membership, and then we’ll dive right back into this episode.  

Inhabit hotels, located in the Bayswater area of London, offers restorative environmentally and socially conscious places to stay in the city. Wellness and wellbeing also play a major part in the brand’s ethos Mindfully designed for the modern traveller everything at this new hotel has been considered with a genuine commitment to environmental initiatives and meaningful community partnerships. To find out more please check out our Instagram at inhabit_hotels.  

If you’re a designer maker, here’s what I want you to know. None of this is your fault. Climate change, ocean acidification, falling biodiversity levels, none of it. But you do get to be part of the solution. And the best part that gets to be creative, collaborative, and filled with wide eyed curiosity. Remember that? Visit www.katietreggiden.com/membership and leave your eco guilt at the door. Find a community of fellow travellers clear actionable steps you can take today and all support you need to join the circular economy. Visit www.katietreggiden.com/membership. I’ll see you there. 

 

GUEST INTERVIEW – PART 2 

So, to the environment point. I’ve got a theory that I would love to run past you because I’m quite fascinated by this. There is an idea milling around in coaching circles about regenerative businesses. And when I first heard this term, being an environmentalist, I thought they meant regenerative in the environmental sense. But what they actually meant is running a small business that regenerates you as a human, that kind of not only helps you to survive, but helps you to thrive and that allows you to live in your passion and all of this sort of thing. But being an environmentalist, this fascinated me, because a lot of the people I work with are absolutely on board with the idea of environmental regeneration, understand that we can’t keep take, take, take, take from the earth, but haven’t quite cottoned on to the fact that we can’t keep take, take, take taking from ourselves. And I wonder if there is a sort of parallel here, do we need to learn to look after ourselves in order to look after the planet? You know, are those things connected? And you know, more than just the use of the same word? 

 

Sarah Fox   

Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier. And so and so I have half formed thoughts 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Awesome, mine are like quarter formed. 

 

Sarah Fox   

So if anyone can come and articulate this in a better way, I’m really up for this conversation. The thing that I was thinking about, was that idea of how our, well, I think there’s something about our self, again, about our self awareness. Running my own business, when I was employed, I just thought I could never want my own business, I could never, ever ever be freelance, I couldn’t do it, I’m not brave enough. I didn’t want to do it and don’t know anything about business, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I can’t ask people for money, whatever, whatever. And here I am, nearly three years later. But it has taught me so much about myself as a human being in the world. You know, I think that’s partly about also having my coaching and my supervision and my therapy. But also, I just have a much better sense of who I am and what I want, because I’ve always worked for organisations that my values were aligned with, utterly and completely, but it was always someone else’s work that I was following, 

 

Katie Treggiden   

And kind of systems and structures and processes as well. 

 

Sarah Fox   

That I’m part of, exactly yeah. And you know, you weren’t nine to five, and you do it this way, and you do it that way. So I think in this idea around how to regenerative businesses. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, I got this from a podcast but I can’t remember the name of the person who put it forward. But I will put it in the show notes to make sure that she’s credited for that time, because it’s not my term. 

 

Sarah Fox   

So there is something about how our businesses can restore, I was thinking of the word restore, restoratative. You know we often find ourselves on this kind of roundabout going round, round, round, round, round, around, and being in the same pattern. And I think if we’re going to have these regenerative, restorative businesses, there needs to be a complete self awareness as much as possible. We need to be in our autonomy, not standing in the narrative pattern that we have been in in the past. And how do we kind of step into I call it like the wise Jedi self, rather than that kind of inner critic? How do we step into that? So that we can create these businesses that are making a difference, that is having the impact that we want to have and that we don’t get distracted? I’ve been reading I don’t know if you’ve read Consumed by Aja Barber?

 

Katie Treggiden   

Not yet, It’s on my to be read file.  

 

Sarah Fox   

I haven’t finished it yet, but what she’s talking about is how can we be citizens, not consumers? And I, you know, is I am going off on tangents here, because it’s just what’s coming up for me right now. But I think as a bit like went in the early stages of my business, I just wanted all the stuff that would make me feel like a business owner. Business cards, pretty website, photographs,  a standing desk, which is one of my favourite things, actually but you know, I wanted a standing desk to be able to run workshops, and yeah, nice computer, and, but I could see myself becoming a kind of, lots of consuming, and not just stuff, but of like other people’s Instagram accounts, and all their social media and consuming, consuming, consuming. So my question, or what I’m curious about is how can we step into this kind of wise Jedi self, be in our autonomy so that we’re making decisions around the here and now, not what was there, so that we have businesses that can restore us? Yeah. And not, you know, I love, I’ve just written a blog about success today. And one of the things I talk about is, I get quite a lot of DMS, from people saying you want a six figure, seven figure, business, blah, blah, blah. But one of the biggest success measures for me is that I am building a business that serves me and not the other way around. And so yeah, I think there’s a lot it’s like a cauliflower and there’s lots of florets when we’re thinking about this idea, so but I love that I’ve How can we create these businesses that really work for us and that make a positive impact? 

 

Katie Treggiden   

And I think it’s so interesting, when you look at things like B Corp, there is just as much weight on people as there is on planet. And it’s absolutely about those two things. And you know, just when you were talking about being on that hamster wheel of running a business, that is a kind of fast consuming state to be in, isn’t it? Whereas if we can slow down to a state that’s better for us, that’s probably also better for the planet. I think, again, these thoughts. I think there’s definitely is this is kind of like the Instagram post I did about why jetlag is our body’s telling us that flags bad for the planet. I haven’t quite worked it out. Yeah, something in it isn’t that? 

 

Sarah Fox   

Well, I think what we’re what I was thinking about our nature and I’ve been doing some work around routines and rituals in my business because we are humans and you know, I’ve always kind of rallied against that thinking it was quite dull, but actually, there’s kind of cycles of our business and the way that we work and I think if we had it, I don’t know again, half formed thought, but by understanding ourselves our own nature, can we then understand better the planets nature, how does that connect?

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, those kind of natural rhythms. Yeah, yeah, I think it’s really interesting. And if you look at one of the conversations that came up in the, in our membership, we have a coaching session once a month, and one of the questions came up was one of the she’s an artist and a fashion designer and she was like, I just haven’t made anything but like, I just don’t feel like making right now, and we were talking about the seasons, and how apple trees don’t make apples all year round, they just make them for a relatively short window of time, in autumn, and the rest of the year they’re absorbing nutrients, they’re sucking in sunshine. And, you know, and there are times as a creative person, when you just need to be having interesting conversations, reading books, going to galleries, just kind of I always talk about it as breathing in and breathing out. Yeah. So there’s times when you just need to be breathing in inspiration and, you know, ideas, and then there are times when you can produce and yeah, only machines can be productive. I mean actually even machines have to be stopped and oiled and serviced. 

 

Sarah Fox   

To be turned off sometimes. Yeah, and I think that’s right. And you know, even actually, that’s the conversation I have quite a lot with the people I work with, as well as those times, you know, we this this kind of cult to productivity, but feeling like we have to be creating all consuming all the time. And we don’t, it’s a lie. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, the first time I saw that meme on Instagram that says “Your worth is not defined by your productivity” I literally stopped when Oh, isn’t it? Yeah, well, but what is my worth defined? My moment of like, yeah, shit. 

 

Sarah Fox   

We need to have time to fill in, I don’t know if this is right but that fallow time. You know, I work a lot with people who, particularly who were in sort of socially engaged arts and textile artists, community artists, and that often relies on funding. And so it’s this constant like you’re delivering the work that you’ve been funded for, but you’re also writing a funding application for the next lot of work. And then you’re also evaluating another bit of work that you’ve just had. And there’s no time to pause and reflect on what’s gone. Well, on what worked, what didn’t, because you’re right into the next thing. And so I think as business owners, we need to be planning in those moments where you are fallow, or where you are, where you do stop, because they are absolutely integral to us having these sustainable businesses, and the only people that can change that is ourselves, is you, you decide on what works for you. Like menstrual cycles, isn’t it in your business? And like I know, for me at certain times in the month, I’m like, yeah, yeah, I’ll do that. Yep. And I’m really energetic. And then there’s another week, I’m like, just, I want to be in my cave. I don’t want to talk to anyone, so that’s what I’ll do kind of easier, more admin work, finding that rhythm, those routines and the rituals that work and break that productivity cycle. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, yeah. And how much do you think actually spending time in nature observing nature kind of in amongst what sometimes called the more than human world can help us to, I guess, partly just have that fallow time, but also kind of see some of those lessons in action?

 

Sarah Fox   

I don’t think we can underestimate how important it is. You know, we all know the research that talks about mental health and being out and about as much as possible, as much as you know it, depending on the individual of course, but it’s again, that’s, I suppose what it is for me, I love, I live by the sea. And one of the things that really inspires me and gives me a bit of perspective is going down and just staring out and there’s a there’s an awe to it. Like sometimes the sky is so incredibly beautiful. We had this amazing rainbow the other day, yesterday, in fact. And it looked like my daughter was right at the bottom of the rainbow. She was in front of the window and the rainbow was coming down just above her head. Wow. I think what it does is it gives you that sense of bigger than self thinking. Yeah, because we all get tied up with the day to day the things we need to do. Getting people you know, getting kids one place to another, feeding the dog, taking the dog for what it you know, we just that we get in these patterns and so I think there is something about being able to be in nature reminds us, it’s bigger than just us. There’s a perspective to it. And if we don’t, if we don’t feel connected to that, how can we make good decisions that are gonna help the planet. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah. Yeah. And I think even if you, you know, we’re both very lucky we live by the sea. Right. Yeah. But I think even if you live in the middle of a city, you know, the sky, pot plants, pets, you know, there are so many ways to connect with things that aren’t manmade or kind of human. You know, and I think it’s important to understand that and that’s why I love the phrase “the more than human world” because we are also part of nature in ourselves. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. There’s a brilliant artists called Bernadette Russell. And she talks a lot about this kind of finding, finding nature all over the place. And she talks a lot about hope as well. And I think it does, I think is, as well as surrounding ourselves in nature as much as possible I think it’s also surrounding ourselves with people who care about it as well. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, that you are the five people, you you’re what’s the phrase “you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with” yeah. And I think it’s so important to find people who care about this stuff. And 

 

Sarah Fox   

yeah, and who are willing to have the half formed weird conversations. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Even when they know it’s going out on a podcast! 

 

Sarah Fox   

Like we’ve got this idea, but because that’s the thing, I see so many that stopped so many people I work with is that they feel like they have to have everything fully formed and that it has to make sense. But the world doesn’t make sense, especially at the moment. So let’s all get on podcasts and try and like figure it out as we go along. Because someone, somewhere might be listening to this and going ah, yes, that makes sense to me, because I’ve got I’ve got the missing bit! 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah, yeah. Yes. More half formed thoughts on podcasts. Amazing. Right before we do the quick fire round. Yeah. Which is an idea I’ve stolen from Ray Dodd, but I think Ray Dodd stole it from Brene Brown so we’re all good. Let people know where they can find you and how they can work with you. 

 

Sarah Fox   

So the best place to find me in terms of social media is on LinkedIn. That’s where I kind of hang out a lot. Well, Twitter as well sometimes more than Instagram. Yeah, I’ve sort of fallen out of love with Instagram. Not sure I was every in love but yeah. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

So LinkedIn. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Sarah Fox coach, I think pretty much everywhere and spread, spread everywhere. And it’s either Sarah Fox coach, or you’ll find me Sarah Fox coaching.  

 

Katie Treggiden   

That’s how I tend to find you when I’m looking for you. So I know that one. Yeah. We’ll also put the links in the show notes.  

 

Sarah Fox   

Come to my website, as well. And yeah, just kind of connect with me and let me know you heard me on the podcast, because I might think you’re one of the people who wants to give me 5, 6, 7 figure business. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Oh, those DMS? Right. So quick fire round. So best book lately? 

 

Sarah Fox   

My this, this was okay, so… 

 

Katie Treggiden   

And you can be really honest. 

 

Sarah Fox   

I really love autobiographies and love an autobiography. I am reading currently Sandy Toksvig’s Between the Stops. And I am also listening to Edith Eger, called The Choice and she was a refugee. And what I love about both of them, is they have just done things in their own way and they talk about choice and making choice and I’m up for any of that kind of reading where people have kind of gone against the status quo a bit. Not in like, necessarily a huge way but yeah, they’ve just both, reading both of those things listening to that have given me a different perspective. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah. And I think the back to that idea of surrounding yourself with people who care about this stuff. And one of the ways you can do that is through books and podcasts, right? They don’t necessarily all have to be IRL humans. Which brings us to podcasts. Yeah, apart from yours or mine, favourite podcast? 

 

Sarah Fox   

I really love How to Own the Room by Viv Groskop. It’s essentially her interviewing lots of really fascinating women about how they own the room. So they might be presenters, artists, all sorts and they talk about so there’s lots of top tips in terms of how to be more confident. You know, even like they talk about what shoes and things like that. It’s very practical, but also, you hear from these amazing women who have, who talk about having a presence or women having a presence. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Love that that’s going on my list. I love that. I went, I remember when I still worked in advertising I went to an amazing conference. And one of the presentations was the top 10 ways to get in head get ahead in advertising as a woman in reverse order, like in reverse order of importance. And number 10 was sort your hair out. I can’t remember what the other nine were tragically. But number 10, you will be judged by your hair, whether you like it or not, so sort it out. And I was like, Okay noted. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Oh god there’s no hope for me, curly ginger who knows what its going to look like in the morning! 

 

Katie Treggiden   

This was like advertising 15 years ago, I’m hoping things have changed. Finish this sentence Circularity is 

 

Sarah Fox   

inevitable. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Ohhhhh, mic drop. Love that. Love that. One thing you wish that sustainable designer makers knew? 

 

Sarah Fox   

That I have been really lucky to work with artists, designer makers, really creative people, performers, all sorts of musicians. And I wish they knew, they really knew, like not just logically, but really knew and believed how brilliant they are and how much we need them. We need their beauty, the beautiful things they create. We need their perspective on the world. The we just need you, because you’re important. And so I wish it’s not just in the head, not in the head thinking it’s like my whole body feels like I have a place and what I can offer is important.

 

Katie Treggiden   

And I  think so much of their worldview is just come so naturally to them. Appreciate, like most of the most of the people I work with are craftspeople, they make things with their hands, they are inherently circular. You know, they kind of fulfil the objectives of the circular economy without even realising it. And the rest of the world has so much to learn from them. But to them, it just comes so naturally they don’t necessarily appreciate how brilliant it is. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Yeah, and I am so jealous. I’m honestly like, I am in awe of people who have that kind of ability to turn nothing into something absolutely astonishing, and beautiful and lovely and useful and not useful. And you know, and so yeah, just really believe in yourselves and that the world needs you?  

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yes love that. Right. Last one, best or worst life or business advice that you’ve ever been given? 

 

Sarah Fox   

Okay, so it’s not advice. It’s what has been modelled to me. So the best stuff I’ve seen is where people are really in they’re vulnerable, they’re honest, they believe in what they do and they’re good at it and there’s a real integrity. Like, that’s when I observed that I get very excited and I want to be part of that. The bits that are the kind of worst modelling the worst, and as I see it as a kind of “Sarah, don’t do this!” this is where they don’t honour or live the values that they say they have. So they say on social media, or whatever, that they believe in this thing but then their actions are not that thing. And so that is my sort of view I’m like, I’m going with the people with integrity and vulnerability, and who are fantastic and avoid, I don’t want to be that. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes that’s, sometimes that’s about living up to your values. Sometimes that’s about being really honest about what your values really are. Like, it’s taken, I am a recovering perfectionist, and it has taken me so long, to A understand why imperfection is important. But B to have the courage to show up imperfectly and it’s so interesting, but that it that’s been the hardest journey for me and it’s one of the things that people will most often say, connected them to me, is the fact that, you know, I’m honest on social media about the fact that I drink Diet Coke, despite having written an entire paper during my master’s about the evils of Coca Cola. I know. I know it’s bad but we’re all imperfect and struggling and human. And I think when you have the courage and you know, back to that word, courage, To, you know, my values having and I’m doing bunny ears for people who can’t see, used to be things like hard work and integrity and courage and you know, they were all sticks to beat myself with essentially, yeah, and it’s only kind of doing values work with Ray Dodd that I was able to create a set of values that felt more spacious and expansive and juicy and generous and more me you know, not, not that I don’t value those other things. But, you know, things like curiosity, and connection and imperfection are more kind of where I want to spend my time. 

 

Sarah Fox   

Can I just say one thing on that which might be helpful. When we think about values, I think what often happens is that we are living or believing the values that we’ve kind of acquired in some way or another so like whether it’s about culture, or what we were told as children like helping, you know, be a good person you help. That’s an acquired value. And for me, when I when I had to really question was kindness, something that was at my very core in my DNA? Or was it something I told I should be in order to fit in and belong? And so doing that work, if anyone has the opportunity, or seek out the opportunity to do that work on values and what is actually, what are the things you are actually driven by it will help you to feel happier, more motivated and more connected. 

 

Katie Treggiden   

And it’s one of the things that we do in The Seed, which is a short for lunchtime programme that I will probably  be running again early next year, that helps people to find their unique contribution to environmentalism. That’s where we start and we start with work that’s been very much informed by the work I did with Ray Dodd that helped me to kind of find those values that were intrinsic, rather than as you say, the ones I had absorbed growing up.  

 

Amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. That was a delicious conversation and I can’t wait for everybody at home to hear it. 

 

OUTRO 

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed what you’ve heard, follow me on Instagram @KatieTreggiden.1 And if you’re a designer maker who’s interested in sustainability, DM me a little recycling symbol and I’ll add you to my close friends group, which is especially for sustainable designer makers.  

 

You might want to sign up to my E-newsletter via the link in the show notes. And it would be amazing if you could follow or review the podcast in whichever platform you’re listening on, that really helps other people to find it, so that’s super helpful.  

 

I want to say one last thank you to Inhabit my gorgeous brand partner for this season who have helped bring it to life and I also want to give a shout out to the Ko-Fi supporters from the initiative that we did in series two. So Kathryn Kernow, Bob Shankley, Eleanor Burke, Vicky Pulter, Leslie Curtis, Val Muddyman, David Clarke and Nolan Giles all bought me a virtual coffee to help with the production of season three.  

 

And last but not least, I want to say a huge thank you to Kirsty Spain whose production skills you are listening to as I speak.  

 

Thank you so much for listening.