Circular Podcast – Season 3 Episode 10

Welcome to season three of Circular with Katie Treggiden, in which we’re exploring what it takes to cultivate a creative practice that enables you, your business and the planet to thrive. We’ll be diving deep into the nuances, complexities and paradigm shifts that we need to embrace in order to bring about a just transition to a more circular economy. 

In this episode, Katie is joined by Laura Eigel Ph.D., the founder of The Catch Group, a leadership coaching firm accelerating women into the C-suite, and the host of the You Belong in the C-Suite podcast. Known for her direct feedback and her passion for living a life guided by her values, she has been an HR executive at Fortune 50 companies, joined the C-suite as a Chief Learning Officer, and now coaches high-achieving women to build fulfilling lives inside and outside of the boardroom. She’s also a mom, wife, and true-crime podcast fan who loves indoor rowing.

You can connect with Laura below:

www.thecatchgroup.com (you will find her free Values Worksheet in the footer)

LinkedIn: @lauraeigel

Insta: @thecatchgroup

Katie and Laura discuss,

• How being aligned to our values can make us be more successful in business
• The six part values first framework
• How to get clarity around what your values are
• Why your values shouldn’t just sit on your pinboard!
• What a boundary is, how we set them, how we enforce them, and how they help to create businesses that are in alignment with your values when it comes to sustainability and environmentalism
• The importance of uplifting others by modelling behaviours and getting the support of your community
• The red flags that might suggest the situation is not in alignment and what are some of the traps we can fall into that move us out of alignment and into conflict
• How we can navigate conflict of values
• How we can run values aligned creative practices for the long haul

Below is a transcript of our conversation. Find the full episode available to listen on Spotify here.

 

INTRO

Welcome to season three of Circular with Katie Treggiden, in which I’m exploring what it takes to cultivate a creative practice that enables you, your business and the planet to thrive. I’ll be diving deep into the nuances, complexities and paradigm shifts that we need to embrace in order to bring about a just transition to a more circular economy.

 

PODCAST SNIPPET

You know, once you know who you are, and what’s important to you, you can then motivate others, you can create those cultures, you can recognise others in those ways. And you can do that as an individual contributor, like if you have no direct reports, or if you are, you know, solopreneur if you’re collaborating with suppliers, and vendors you just become known for this is how this person works, right? And this is how this person can influence. And I find that like, if I do it that way, then I’m able to influence even more, and I’ll have a legacy that will outlast anytime that I’ve been in any job no matter what.

 

GUEST INTRO

So I talk a lot about how there is no one right or wrong way to do environmentalism, right. It’s about making decisions that are aligned with your values. And in fact, one of the pillars of my making design circular framework is align. But what does it mean to make decisions that are aligned with your values? Well for this episode, I am incredibly excited to have interviewed Laura Eigel, who has written a book called Values First. And the strapline is how knowing your core beliefs can get you the life and career you want. And I would argue, they can also help you make the impact in environmentalism that you want to make. So listen up, and let me know what you think.

 

GUEST INTERVIEW – PART 1

Katie Treggiden 

Amazing, well, welcome, Laura Eigle, thank you so much for joining us on circular with Katie Treggiden, I would love you to start by introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about the story of how you ended up doing what you do now.

 

Laura Eigel 

Sure, well, first, thank you so much for sharing your space with me, I’m really excited to have a conversation with you today. So I’m Laura Eigel. I am based in Dallas, Texas, and I am an organisational psychologist by training and I have founded the company The Catch Group. And we believe that we need more diversity and authenticity in the workplace, especially in the top jobs, and really to build the cultures that we that we can to be authentic leaders. And so I’ve done that through, you know, building the capability and developing leaders in different ways throughout my career. So I did that in consulting, and throughout my kind of 15 plus years in corporate America, working for bigger companies, and developing talent through coaching. And that’s what I spend a lot of my time doing now, I coach leaders, I coach senior leadership teams, and I do in individual and group coaching through my business to really help leaders lead with their values and get the life and career that they want.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Amazing. I’ve taken lots of nodding and smiling through all of that which you won’t be able to see if you’re listening at home. Yes, do we need more authentic and diverse leadership in business? Oh, my goodness. So I am particularly interested, as I mentioned to you in our kind of pre conversations about this idea of being values based. So one of the pillars of the making design circular framework is this idea that there isn’t a right or a wrong way to do environmentalism, it’s about doing it in a way that aligns with your values. So I was super excited to get the chance to explore this with you. And kind of how your work might relate to designer makers trying to work out how to run their own businesses. I think often people running tiny businesses don’t think of themselves as leaders, but they really are, and also leaders in environmentalism and in this space, right? They’re running businesses in new and different ways, which I think is really exciting. So I have been reading your wonderful book Values First, which has the subtitle, knowing your core beliefs can get you to the life and career you want and I have some questions.

 

Laura Eigel 

I love it. I cannot wait to dig into your questions.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Awesome. So you talk in the introduction about the idea that to be a good leader It’s not about how loudly you command a room, but how authentically you show up as yourself in your values. And the idea that when you show up authentically centred in those values, you’ll actually be more successful. And I’d love to unpick that a little bit because I think often we have this idea that, you know, good leaders are sort of the shouty people, right. In order to show up authentically and values based we’re perhaps going to have to compromise some of that success. So I’d love to hear you talk about how this can actually make us more successful.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, I think you’re right, that idea if you like Google image of leader, right, what’s going to come up like going up probably a white man and a power suit, right, something like that. And so I think, this idea, that’s been the narrative that we’ve been taught, like, you have to be an extrovert, you have to have charisma. In the corporate world, we always hear this idea of gravitas or executive presence and those like.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Oh God, I had so many reviews when I worked in corporate of like, Katie you haven’t got enough gravitas. That was what came up in every single review and I was like, I don’t even know what this thing is that you want me to have more of?

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, it’s, they’re telling you, you need to be more like a white guy, I think. I’ve gotten the same feedback. And I am, I’m an introvert. And so I’ve never, ever had enough gravitas, never had enough of something, right. But the times that I haven’t been trying to do that, is when I show up, and when I’m connected, and when I’m present, and I do things my way, I’m more authentic, and I can be there for my team, I can, you know, I can lead in the way that works for me. And this idea of getting to values of alignment through leadership, I think is first just this idea of like, Who are you like kind of that self awareness of knowing what it is, versus, you know, who am I trying to show up to be. Because when I was in these big corporate jobs, I was an executive and like, fortune 50 companies, and there is a way to like act in meetings, right? There were things that you like were supposed to do, like, if you’re in a meeting you had to share your point of view, like otherwise, why were you there? Right? And then.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Which is so interesting, right? Because clearly, you’re listening. And that very much says that we value talking more than listening. Right?

 

Laura Eigel 

Right? You’re absolutely right. And you know, there was all the jockeying, that would happen, and like, Oh, let me build on this person’s comment, and let me do this, and, and then I’ll just a lot of presenting to each other is a lot of the work that we did. And, you know, I ended up leaving that company, and being a chief learning officer at another company. And, you know, it showed up there too, in a different way, a lot of extroverts, lots of leaders doing things in a different way. And I felt like I had more power in the room, because I had the title, right. So I was supposed to act in a certain way as a chief person. And so I probably gave myself a little bit more room to like, act like lead how I lead, but still, in a way that wasn’t always authentic to me, because I was dressing the part or I was, you know doing the things that you were supposed to do in the C suite. And I finally, you know realise these are, this is who I am, this is my values I’m going to show up as an introvert, and this looks like this, this looks like that. And I train people how I thought I trained people, you know, I like to ask questions. And I showed up better, I got better results, my team did, too. And so I know that that worked for me. And I started really just talking and digging into like values and describing my leadership that way. And my team really resonated with it, I had a team of over 50 people around the world, it was global company, and we’re making of big accomplishments. And at that point, you know, I was hopefully inspiring others and I knew I was doing it more than when I was, you know, that quote unquote, perfect executive with the gravitas and all the things right, taking up as much space at the table. And so I knew that if I modelled that, those behaviours, with my team that that would then give them permission to do the same, because there’s no other way that we’re going to change culture if we’re not going to model it. And so that’s the cultures that I’ve built for my teams throughout my career. And so now that’s what I like to teach about is this idea of, you know, once you know, like, who you are, what’s important to you, you can then you know, motivate others you can, you can create those cultures, you can recognise others in those ways. And you can do that as an individual contributor, like if you have no direct reports, or if you are, you know, solopreneur if you’re collaborating with suppliers and vendors, you just become known for this is how this person works, right? And this is how this person and can influence. And I find that like, if I do it that way, then I’m able to influence even more. And I’ll have a legacy that will outlast anytime that I’ve been in any job no matter what.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, I think it makes for more interesting conversations, right? Because rather than saying this is the way we’re doing it, because it’s always been done, or this is the way we’re doing it, because I say, so. If this is the way I’d like to do it, because these are my values, what are your values, how does that align? You know, I was talking on the episode with Ray Dodd about the difference between power over and power with, and it feels like much more of a power with framework for conversations with people which I think’s really powerful.

 

In your book, you outline a six part values first framework, which you’ve developed. Could you give us like a super topline of what that looks like and then we’ll dig into each part of the framework in a bit more detail.

 

Laura Eigel 

Sure, yeah. So of course, it’s an acronym, right? We gotta love a good acronym. So it spells out values, and the V for values is all about identifying your values, the A stands for audit time so just identifying like, what, how am I spending my time, is it aligned with my values or not? The L is for life boundaries and that’s a really important, I think we should dig into a bit in our conversation today. And it’s all about how do you create, you know, systems and routines that align with your values in any way, and the U is for uplifting others and that’s the idea of modelling it other for others, right to create those cultures. And E is for experiencing conflict, so it’s not going to be, you know, if it’s when we experience conflict, and I find that it’s a lot of internal conflict, not just external conflict. And so how do you navigate through your values, and there’s some ways to do that. And then S is for sustaining values and this idea that it’s an ongoing journey, and you’re never really done, it’s always about what and how to dig in to what matters most to you now, and that next time in your life.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Awesome, I love that I have read the book and put together all these questions and I hadn’t tweaked that there was an acronym there. I was just like, values first, yep, auditing time, this all makes sense.

 

So tell us about values first, how can listeners dig into what matters most to them and start to get clarity around what their values are, and what living them might look like? Because I know when I started doing values work, what I thought were my values were actually things that had been handed down to me by my family, by my school, by my upbringing, by society, and it took me a really long time to get clear on actually what my values were. So how would you advise people to start getting clarity around that?

 

Laura Eigel 

I love that you set us up for this conversation with just that. I think it can feel big, because of all the things that have kind of been handed to us, right? Our family of origin, our culture, like all of the things. Sometimes, because it feels big, like Oh, shouldn’t I know what my values are, sometimes people don’t start. And so I would just say, let’s dig in and start. And so I have a very easy way to kind of dig into it, and we’ll make this available for listeners, there’s a values worksheet that I have in the book, and it asks you to answer a couple of prompts. So like, within 15-20 minutes, I want you to dig in, and by the end of that you can understand like, what are some themes and understand what are some words that resonate with those themes. So the questions that I like to ask is, what is a time that you have one of those days that is like just the best day where you were, you were, you know, in flow, or you just remember and this could be at work or in life and just write it down and describe it and you’re just journaling about it What were you wearing? What was it like? Who were you with? What was it like outside? All the things right? And then I asked you to kind of do the opposite and say, you know, right about a time that you have felt uncomfortable, like something was not right in your gut, like, you know, those uncomfortable, like misaligned days, not like the trauma days, but like the something feels weird. And so, this idea of this discomfort usually can point us and can give us a lot of clarity. It seems kind of counterintuitive, right to write about a time that wasn’t awesome. But that’s where I find like that is your body telling you, Hey, pay attention because something is array, right? And so, after you kind of prompt journal on those couple of themes, I present a couple of word, thought starters in terms of ways to identify five to seven words or phrases that you can use to identify your core values. And so what you’re looking for is what themes can I pull out of those prompts like are you writing about you know, curiosity, adventure, freedom, different things like that. And I can give you an example, when I wrote about the days that like, I was like in flow, loving life doing all the things, it was really when I was coaching, like this idea of one on one coaching. And I was working with leaders, I was learning the business, I was helping them, I was asking questions, I was like doing all this stuff. And through that, I pulled out the theme of development for you know, developing others, and then also growth because I was growing myself. And so those are some of the ways that you can kind of look at what you journal, pull out some of those, have those themes and figure out what resonates with you. And I suggest you only pick like five to seven words, because we could make it a super long laundry list of stuff. And but really, this is an iterative process. And so within 15-20 minutes, you do some journaling, you get a couple of key words, and you start to feel it out, like how do these words feel, is it this or is it that, is it a combination of these two? Then we start to kind of dig in a little bit deeper, there’s also a space on the worksheet to write down secondary values to which I like to pay attention to, because again, this is a process and if it resonates with you just write it down and keep track of it, because it might come up later in the future. And what I find, to your point, this idea of, you know, sometimes we have values that come up for us, that we write down, I’ll give an example of one of my clients, she wrote down family connection as one of her values. Because, of course, she was supposed to have family connection on there, right. Throughout her the iteration and like digging into our values and understanding them, she actually demoted it, she said, I’m demoting this very value, because it didn’t feel like of course, her family’s important to her but creativity and freedom and impact were more important. And she was like, I kind of feel weird about it but I kind of don’t like, you know, as a woman, like should I have it on there? Because society tells me if I don’t what am I a psychopath, all this stuff. And there’s some guilt, right, that comes along with those kinds of things. But that’s kind of the iteration and the evolution that that comes along with this. And I find that, you know, as you iterate on values and identification, you come closer to the ones that are truly yours. But the first, the first thing I say is just start, start somewhere and get a draft so that you can start working to see what really truly resonates with you.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, there’s a couple of things you said that I think are really interesting. One is this idea of listening to your guts because I think so often, particularly in a sort of capitalist society, where productivity is prized above all else, we’re told to push through, you know, smash down those feelings, crack on, get the work out, get it done. And I think I’ve almost reached a point where I couldn’t hear my gut anymore. And I’ve spent the last couple of years really trying to tune in, and it’s so interesting that I had a call recently, and I couldn’t work, my brain couldn’t work out what was off. It was a potential new business call. But my body was going nuts. I was like flushed red, my knee was jiggling, my whole body was just going no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it was only a couple of hours later that I worked out what the red flags were and why it was rationally and sort of mentally that I didn’t want to take on this particular piece of work. But my body knew for sure faster than I did. So I think that’s really interesting. And I think the other interesting thing that you said is, I mean, it was all interesting. But the other thing that stood out to me is this sense that, like, I’ve seen these things where you get like an A4 Page covered in words and it’s like pick your five values. I think the problem with those is most of those things are important to me. Like, of course, family is important to me. I mean, I think my top three values used to be courage, hard work, and integrity. Those things are incredibly important to me, but they feel so heavy, you know. And having gone through this work again, I’ve now got words like hang on there up on my desk somewhere, like curiosity, and evolution, and creativity and spaciousness. And those words feel so much more expansive. And so I think sometimes this idea that if it’s not in my values that doesn’t matter to me, whereas hundreds of things can matter to you, but it’s about picking those five to seven, isn’t it, which can be really tricky I think.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah and I think that’s what, that’s the work there. It’s like, okay, so if I asked somebody just sitting next to me at a workshop, like, Oh, what are your values, and they hadn’t done this, they would probably say honesty, integrity, family, respect like all the things, right? Joy, whatever, and that’s fine. And then I would ask them, hey, well, what does that mean to you? And they’re like, Oh, I’m not sure. And so that’s what this work is in that first section is identifying it and then talking about okay, well, what does this even look like. And you can think about it in terms of what does it look like physically in life, like what does success look like and success is relative, it’s not this idea of perfectionism to be perfect in your values. It’s just like what does even living that look like and so that’s where we kind of continue to this next phase of really understanding what does success look like, in everyday life and then checking to see if is that present in my life anywhere, right?

 

Katie Treggiden 

So the next section is auditing your time. And I’ve got to be honest, I feel super called out by this.

 

Laura Eigel 

Tell me why, tell me tell me.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Because if I look at my time, most of it is dominated by other people’s priorities. It’s answering emails, it’s meeting deadlines, it’s kind of reactive rather than intentional. And I think the amount of my time I spend doing something that I feel is, it’s not that I’m spending a lot of time on aligned with those values, but if you ask me to kind of plot those values against my week, I think I would struggle to show that most of it was really kind of in one of those spaces. So how can folks start to sort of map this out within their creative practices and small businesses? Why does it matter, why can’t we just busy ourselves with busy work and have our values up on our pinboard like I’ve got mine.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, because to your point, because everything else will take precedent, it just will. Because that’s just how we’ve done it, even the way that we like schedule time with each other now, if you think about it, people put time on your calendar, right, you usually don’t do the opposite. And so we allow so much of our lives, to your point, to kind of be reactive and available to others. It’s really those in you know, professions where we’re trying to make a difference, that’s probably one of your values, is caring for others in some way. And so that’s your behaviours, and that’s years and years and decades of behaviours and societal norms, right? And so this idea of putting your values first can be for others but really, it’s so that you centre your time to do that, because the days that I do Katie, oh, my goodness, like, I’m a different person, I’m a better person, I’m more me, I feel grounded, I feel centred, I’m better for my clients, I’m probably saying no more, I’m ruthlessly keeping my time right for me, and that’s not always but more often than not, right.

 

And so this idea of really auditing your time is really first and foremost, just gathering data. Like, let’s just gather the data, see what it’s like, because I will also tell you that you’ll probably find things that you didn’t ever connect to your values that are absolutely connected to your values. Oh, interesting, which is really interesting, right? And so I think it’s for both, it’s to understand, you know, we always go, I think, to the deficit while I’m not doing this, and I’m not doing that, but like, the other is true. Also, like, Oh, I’m spending a lot of time doing XYZ, well, why is that? Oh, that’s probably connected to this value, I didn’t even make that connection before. So I think you need to allow for both in that time.

 

But this idea of auditing time sometimes feels a bit scary, because you’re just like, Okay, well, what am I spending my time on. I do this at least once a year. And always, always, always too much time on screens, always, no matter what. And so I just know that about myself and I find that the times that I increase my phone usage, it’s again, it’s a call out to like, what is that telling me, am I avoiding something? It’s just data for myself. And so, if you, if you’re just starting this journey, the idea is like, you know, look at your whole day, not just your work day, I think we spend a lot of times we look at our like nine to five or eight to 6pm, or whatever and that is usually pretty scheduled out. But like, how do you start your morning, what is your 6pm to 10pm look like? That’s a tonne of time too. And so where is that, and I’m not trying to account for like every single minute, but like in chunks of time what is aligned to your values, what isn’t and what is that saying? And so this idea that it’s really a two step process. It’s just like, hey, record several days in a row, how are you spending your time, and then after that, it’s this idea of, can you connect that time, or those activities or those feelings or those experiences to a value and why. That’s where you find again, this idea of a deficit or a gap to be filled, of course, but then you also find them surprises. Maybe I do XYZ, because I love connection, and I never realised that before, or, you know, whatever you’re listening to or reading. Sometimes I don’t think about that as that’s time that is as beneficial as work, right? But really, for me, like I need that time as an introvert, I have to recharge by myself and the days that I do you like read a fiction book, I’m a better mom, I’m a better partner, I’m a better holistic person, you want to be around me more. And so I think even some of that time that we’ve probably not accounted for in the past, you know, just comes up here and potentially you can link it to something, or maybe you don’t, but at least you know, what, what am I spending my time on.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, I think that’s so valuable, isn’t it. And then being intentional about that, and sort of understanding. Something that happened to me recently, which I’ve only just connected to values actually, is that I used to consider social media and marketing and e-newsletters, and all that stuff as admin. And I used to do them slightly begrudgingly, and kind of squeeze them in around the edges. And I recently had a shift, which was actually I’m a writer and I’m also an incredibly visual person. So this could be if I choose to make it creativity. And this could be something I set aside a proper chunk of time and do in the winter with the same love and attention and care as I would write an article or a book or create a course. And it’s really shifted the way I treat that block of my week, which you know, it takes up quite a lot of time either way. But it’s something that started feeling spacious and juicy and filled with curiosity and creativity and all those things that I valued. So I guess that’s the other thing is perhaps if there are things that aren’t feeling aligned, but have to be done, is there a way that you can change the way you’re doing them to make them feel more aligned.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, I love that the intentionality that you just said, I think it’s, it’s all about that. And then also if you just want to watch Netflix, what’s okay it doesn’t all have to be perfect, and perfectly aligned to a value. But I think to your point, like these big chunks of time or the mindset shift. And really, I just want you to figure out, is there a is there a thing, that is a surprise in a good way. And then honour that and keep doing it. Is there one or multiple, usually there’s multiple things that you’re just like, oh, this still doesn’t feel good, or oh, hey, I thought had this value, where is it I do not see anywhere here. So first, I would say maybe ask somebody else. Do they see you do this value somewhere because we don’t always see it from our own point of view. The other thing is, is that still a value, like if you’re not doing it, potentially, that should be a secondary value and not a core value. And so you’re looking at this from different lenses, like, first testing to see is this really important, if so how can we not spend time on it, or energy on it, doesn’t always have to be time, like actual minutes, it could just be energy or thinking or whatever it is. Which is the one that I need to think a little bit more about and do something about and I don’t want you to do like this whole like life overhaul, not at all, I want you to take some, just some more intentional steps. Audit time is more about awareness. Really, it’s really all about awareness. And then as we move into the next one in terms of life boundaries, that’s where we get a bit more tactical. And we can go there next if you’d like.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yes, let’s I have a quick question first, though, is it okay, if your values are aspirational? Or should they reflect the current reality?

 

Laura Eigel 

I love that question. You know, I would understand, what’s the aspirational part.

 

Katie Treggiden 

I guess for me, one of my one of my stated values I have upon my board is spaciousness. Because I know, when I have time and space, I am a calmer, happier human. However, I am a naturally very high energy, slightly chaotic human so spaciousness is not something that comes naturally to me. And so every time I look at it up on my board, I’m a bit like, really, Katie, like is that ever going to happen?

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, I think you know that about yourself, though. So it’s not completely like something that you haven’t experienced, right? You’ve experienced it and you know that puts you in a positive place. And so in that instance, again, we’re not looking for you know, you to completely change who you are, but how can you get more spaciousness.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Interestingly, one of the things that you said, I’ve only ever looked at my work day, but I do a lot of yoga outside of work which is incredibly spacious. And I have literally just in this moment made that connection that actually perhaps that’s the way that I’m bringing spaciousness into my whole day, even if it doesn’t exist within my working day very often.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yes. And this is exactly what it is. You are a whole person. You are not a work person and a non work person. You are a whole person. And so literally in yoga you are, you’re reaching, you’re opening your body, you are actually making your body bigger, you’re breathing, you’re letting more air in. And you are absolutely spacious. And so give yourself credit for that you so I would say that that’s maybe not so aspirational. I think you’re doing it.

 

Katie Treggiden 

I’ve got goosebumps. I feel a bit teary. Yes, good. Okay. So yeah, I think it’s interesting that perhaps the ones we think are aspirational, we might be able to find them once we’ve done that time audit and kind of see where they’re coming in or find ways to bring them in.

 

AD BREAK WITH INHABIT

We’re going to take a short break now to do four things. Firstly, I would love you to hear from Inhabit who are the brand partner for season three. So Inhabit are the hotels that I actually stay in when I’m in London because they’re absolutely gorgeous and super sustainable. So, I reached out to them to ask if they would be interested in helping me bring this season of the podcast to life. And to my delight, they said yes, so you’ll hear from them shortly.

But first, I want to talk to you about a few things.

One is that I am a member of something called 1% for the planet, which means I donate 1% of my turnover, not profit to an environmental charity every year. And the charity I’ve chosen to partner with is Surfers Against Sewage, who are headquartered in my home county of Cornwall. So surfers against sewage is a grassroots environmental charity that campaigns to protect the ocean and all that it makes possible. It was created in 1990 by a group of Cornish surfers fighting to clean up the sea that was making them sick. Now surfers against sewage campaigns on everything that threatens the ocean. So plastic pollution, the climate emergency, industrial exploitation and water quality, by taking action on the ground that triggers change from the top. And if like me, you would like to support surfers against sewage you can do that https://www.sas.org.uk/

I’d also like to talk to you about a couple of other things while I’ve got you.

I have got a new book coming out at the end of April called Broken: Mending and repair in a throwaway world. I’m really excited about this book. It looks at the cultural and social roles that mending and repair play in a world where we don’t really need to fix things anymore. It also profiles 28 amazing remakers, menders, fixes, hackers curators and artists who are using mending and repair techniques in their work. So if that sounds up your street, you can pre order a copy via link in my show notes or by talking to your local bookshop, wherever you usually get your books you should be able to pre order that. And pre orders are what makes the world go around in publishing, particularly for smaller books like mine, so I would be incredibly grateful if you’re interested in that book that you pre order a copy before it comes out at the end of April. That would be amazing.

The last thing I want to tell you about before I hand you over to hear from inhabit. So I know from personal experience how easy it is to feel hopeless and depressed and kind of all in the doom and gloom of the climate crisis. Right? It is a lot. And so I’ve created something called Cultivating Hope in the face of the climate crisis. It is a three part mini course all delivered via email into your inbox. It’s free. It’s gorgeous. I’m really excited about it. And I would love for you to sign up for that also via a link in the show notes.

Alright, I will hand you over to here from in habit and then we will dive back into the second part of this episode.

Inhabit hotels, located in the Bayswater area of London, offers restorative environmentally and socially conscious places to stay in the city. Wellness and wellbeing also play a major part in the brand’s ethos Mindfully designed for the modern traveller everything at this new hotel has been considered with a genuine commitment to environmental initiatives and meaningful community partnerships. To find out more please check out our Instagram at inhabit_hotels.

 

GUEST INTERVIEW – PART 2

Katie Treggiden 

Step three is life boundaries. Now I’m only a few years into even knowing what a boundary is, let alone knowing how to set one, let alone knowing how to enforce one once I’ve set it. So could you give us a bit of a kind of description of what a boundary is, how we set them and how we enforce them, and how that might help designers, makers and crafts people to create businesses that are in alignment with their values when it comes to sort of sustainability and environmentalism and that sort of thing. Because I think that’s often somewhere where boundaries are really important because it’s something that gets pushed back from clients and customers and from budgets and timings and all that sort of thing. So I think this could be a really interesting topic to dig into.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, absolutely. So this is another one that you know, there’s a misconception I think about boundaries. When I ask people, “What do you think a boundary is?” generally people say, it’s kind of a wall or restriction or a guideline or a hard line. I really like to think of it in a different way. And so if you think about your values, you have that in kind of the centre. And then I think about like holding my values in my hand, and your boundaries are your hands. And it kind of creates care for your values. And that’s really what I want you to do with boundaries, I want you to create care for yourself, for what’s important. And so that can look like a lot of different things. That could look like who you work with, it could look like how you make decisions, it could be how you spend your time, right. And so as a business owner, it could be all of those things, it could be none of those things, it could be a mindset, it could be the story that you tell yourself.

 

So as you think about this idea of what’s a value that I want to live more into, maybe its spaciousness, we’ll use that as an example. And what does that tangibly look like. So you just described actually feeling that space and being  able to do that within your business. What could that look like for you? And what does that look like for you? Does that mean like, more time that you have control of? Does it look like you working with only certain kinds of companies or suppliers? Does it look like having more freedom around something? What does that tangibly look like for you, and you don’t have to answer right now if you don’t want to, but just those are the kinds of things that you might want to think about. And so as you start to describe that to yourself, the first step in building a boundary within my framework is to tie it to a value, and that I’m gonna be my psychologist geeky self right now, but that’s really tied to the psychology of motivation and intrinsic motivation. And so this idea of, if we connect it to something that’s important to us, like this boundary, connect it to something that’s important, you’re going to be more likely to do it, right. So that’s, again, why we say values first, connect everything to values. And so as you are working with building that boundary, whatever that is, connect it to the one that’s most important. So Maybe for you it’s spaciousness. Okay, then what is the thing that you want, maybe it’s more time in your day to do the things that you want to do less about being reactive to everybody else. So how do you do that, so what might that look like? Is it creating blocks of time in the morning, maybe where you’re unavailable, and it’s only thinking time, or it’s a walk in the middle of the day. Because you can do that because it’s your day. And so the second step, is tying it to a system, so you have the value of spaciousness, then you’re like, Okay, what is this system that I can use. Is it blocking your calendar? Is it getting, you know, holding yourself accountable to somebody else that can say, hey, no Katie, you’re not supposed to be on a call right now, you’re supposed to be taking a walk. Is it tied to an app a whatever. Sometimes that’s the best thing to do is just to remind yourself, because sometimes it’s unlearning and then relearning. So what are some systems that have worked for you in the past, think about that. And then how can you use that to create a system that will work for you. And this is kind of a trial and error kind of thing, so try it for days set a realistic target and again, this is not like the whole new year’s resolution new year new me kind of thing. It’s like small, incremental steps. Try it, how did it feel, did you like it, did you not like it, was it uncomfortable, and spoiler alert, it will feel uncomfortable, because it will mean potentially saying no to people, being more unavailable, it might just be going out of your comfort zone. And so sometimes people mistake that discomfort for like, oh, no, I shouldn’t be doing this. But actually, yes you absolutely should be doing this. Because again, you’re caring for your values. By you’re caring for yourself, you’re caring for your business, and you’re going to be able to show up and do more of what you want to do through your business to help the world if you’re abiding by your own boundaries.

 

And then the last step and building a boundary is to celebrate success. And I really think that we don’t do this often enough, it feels a bit self indulgent. Just celebrating and thinking about, you know, doing something good for ourselves because, you know, doing the boundary that’s good enough. And no, it is not, I think you need to double down and you just need to celebrate and that could be something small, just like acknowledging it. Like I’m so proud of myself today for doing X or for being consistent. It could be you know, taking that extra walk, it could be hanging out with a friend Whatever it is something that just lights you up just for at least a couple of minutes, and you’re connecting that back to you doing that boundary and showing up for yourself and your values.

 

Katie Treggiden 

That’s so interesting, because I think I’d always thought of boundaries as something that protected, I don’t think I’d got as far as connecting it to values but protected something from other people. So I’ve done things like I didn’t take calls in the morning anymore, because I’m not super switched on in the mornings. And that’s the time actually where I can do solo work best. But I know that calendar blocking works really well for me, but I very rarely do it. And that is almost protecting my values from myself, right? Because that’s stopping me scrolling on Instagram, just responding to emails and making me do the thing I actually want to do. So that’s a really interesting shift I think that it’s not just protecting these things from other people, it’s also protecting them from your less intentional self. And old habits, and all of those sorts of things. But one thing I have found really useful as I read somewhere, I probably amongst Brene Brown’s wealth of output, that a boundary is not about getting other people to do something, it’s about how you will respond when people do certain things. And again, I found that really useful because that’s brought it back into me. So rather than it being like, don’t ask me for a meeting on a Monday morning, it’s like, well, you can ask, but I don’t take calls in the morning. So it kind of takes some of that frustration out of it a little bit, I think but that reframe that I need to have those same conversations with myself, I think it’s really powerful.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, I think another kind of myth is that, you know, everybody’s going to rebel against your boundaries. And really I find that it’s more myself that rebuilds against some of these. And it’s really mindset. Really, it’s, it’s this idea that, you know, I think other people will think X of me, has anybody ever told me that, though? No, usually not. And so within the within the book, there’s a worksheet on building a boundary in it. And it talks about this idea of internal versus external things that might hold you back. And what I find is that generally, the things that we think will hold us back on a boundary, we think really it’s going to be external but more often than not, it’s the internal stuff we’re going to tell ourselves. Or it’s things that we think other people will say, but nobody’s ever told us, right. And so we’re really getting in our own way a lot of the time, and I can say that from personal experience, for sure. And it’s a lot of unlearning and relearning, but again, it’s that caring for yourself. Boundaries are not about other people, they are about you, and you holding yourself to your own boundaries, is basically saying, I’m holding myself to my values. And that feels good. It’s hard sometimes. But then if you start doing it for the little things, it’s gonna help you do it for the big things. And so sometimes I feel like the big things feel like oh my gosh, it’s so hard. But actually, you know, at the end of the day, you’re probably going to stand up for the big things that you believe in, right? But it’s the little stuff and that consistency on the little stuff, I think that really tells us like, how are we spending our time, who are we hanging out with, who are we buying things from all of all of that kind of stuff.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, and I think it’s so interesting when you connect it to values, because you mentioned that some of this stuff can feel quite self indulgent. And that’s, I have to catch myself because the amount of times I will say to my coach oh but it just feels so indulgent. And she’s actually suggested I make indulgent my word of the year, because a lot of the stuff I think is indulgent, it’s actually really important for me, like reading and writing as a writer is quite important, but it feels indulgent because I love doing it. So I think connecting it to values rather than kind of self care or something that feels selfish, even though we know it’s not makes it somehow feel it’s higher purpose, and it’s this higher thing I can hold things to. I think you’re right, that the sense of having to then ground that in a system and a process, so you’ve got this idea, we connect it to something higher, but then we’re also grounding it in a system and a process so that on the day to day it’s happening it’s not just a sort of once a year exercise that we do on a business retreat, it’s kind of the day to day.

 

Laura Eigel

Yeah, and I think especially for people that are in a purpose driven world, which many of you are, many of your listeners are, many of the leaders that I work with. A lot of their values to, to your point of it feels indulgent, a lot of their values are for everyone else. So what we know is that if we take care of ourselves then we’re going to be able to make a bigger impact. And so I think that’s another thing here, in addition to just make sure that your values really are not just for everyone else, but where are you in them. And to your point of if you feel like you are an indulgent for instance, giving your example, where could the play out, how does that align to your values, and where should it and why? And ask yourself like, if there’s if there’s a feeling there, it’s probably worth digging into a bit more.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, I think it’s so interesting, isn’t it? I think often we have this sense of, you know, your value is to save the planet. And it’s like, cool, but how, what’s that going to do with you, what’s the real kind of you part of that rather than the lofty ambition, which is something we dig into in other episodes, so awesome.

 

So then we move on to uplifting others. And I love this because I feel like this is part of what we do in my membership, community making design circular as well. But I’d love to know kind of what this looks like, as part of this framework.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, for me this is all about modelling behaviour, and then also getting the support that you that you need. And so this idea of peers are so important, a community is so important and where is that because, you know, the people that are closest to you will know you and can help you and ensure that you live your values, because they’re going to be the first people to call you out and I think you need that accountability. I know I do from a peer level. And then as a leader, to your point, you said, well, maybe we don’t feel like leaders, but you absolutely are everyone, no matter what seat you were in, you are a leader. And I think you living your values it’s just such a powerful way to show other people that they have permission to do the same thing. How am I going to change the world? Well, you’re going to do it with one thing at a time. What is your part and how can you do that? And let me show you, here’s my part, and how can we do it together, and how can we build on it with each other and all of the things. And so you modelling it is probably the most important thing, even if you’re a solopreneur, you’re still collaborating with other people, right. You have suppliers, you have consumers, you have customers, you have lots of people that you deal with every day, and they’re seeing that you’re living out these things, and it’s gonna motivate them and inspire them to do the same.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, yeah, I think that’s so powerful. There’s a memory that comes to mind from when I was at school. And there was a girl I went to school with who wore leg calipers. And so she couldn’t, she walked a certain way because of the reason she was wearing leg calipers. And the school bully used to follow her around the playground copying the way she walked. And everybody would laugh. And I wouldn’t laugh because I didn’t think it was funny. And I remember once the girl next to me looked at me, saw I wasn’t laughing and she stopped laughing as well. It was just this moment, if you haven’t got a laugh, if you think this is cruel, none of us were brave enough to stand up to this bully because she bullied all of us as well. But neither did we have to collude in it. And it was this tiny moment of just me staying in my values and not doing anything not saying anything, not, you know, making any big statement. But just staying in my values allowed the girl next to me to stay in her values to and you just sort of think God, the amount of tiny little ripple effects like that are probably happening that we have no idea that are happening just by staying in our own values, not even kind of doing anything outward, or trying to convince anybody of anything but just sitting tight in our values. I think that’s really powerful.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah. And, and you don’t know when other people are watching, right? You just you’d never know. I think most of the time people are not watching. But you never know when they are. And so it goes back to what is important to you and how are you reacting in that moment, in that example that you gave, right? But then it’s also if you if you saw a friend, you could say, Hey, you can call them out or you could say I’m so glad that you did that that was a really important thing that you did. And you can support each other along the way to your point of like this idea of community, community does matter.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, hugely, because I think a lot of the stuff that designer makers are being called to do right now is going against the grain of the larger industry. And a lot of it is being led by individual craftsman who are doing something different from huge companies. And so knowing that you’re not alone in that, and that there are other people, not necessarily making the same decisions as you, but making values aligned decisions. And I think it’s lovely to be in a group of people who were all making slightly different decisions, but making values align decisions. It’s not necessarily the fact that we’re all doing it the same, it’s where those decisions are coming from, I think that’s really powerful.

 

Yeah, absolutely. So in doing all of this, there’s going to be conflict. Yeah, this is the bit that makes me go. And you write in the book about this internal conflict or conflict within teams in businesses, but as you just mentioned, my listeners will have relationships with suppliers, with partners, with clients. We’re all in relation with other people, aren’t we even if we run businesses on our own. So what are some of the red flags that might suggest the situation is not in alignment? And what are some of the traps we can fall into that move us out of alignment and into conflict? And what can we do about that?

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, I think one of the ones that I’d love to go back to is just this idea, Hey, I used to like to do this, but I don’t like do it anymore. We don’t have to, once we have once we do something, once we make a decision, we do not have to say it and do it forever. And so that’s like, that’s another kind of knowing like listening to your, sometimes it’s your body, sometimes it’s just like procrastination, sometimes it’s something else. But I think we do a lot of things for lots of different causes that might mean giving time or money or both, or whatever it is. And a decision doesn’t have to be a lifetime one. And it’s okay to do things in a different way. And so I think one of the things that we can do is to think about, if we feel like I’m not super excited about this thing I used to be really excited about, like, why is that? And to kind of dig into that. I think that’s a that’s a big thing for business, too. Right? So just because you did it this way in the past, do you have to do it in the future?

 

Katie Treggiden 

I love the idea that procrastination is a red flag, because I always think that’s one of the things people really shame themselves for, isn’t that right? It’s like, why can’t you just make yourself do the thing, but maybe there’s a reason that you’re not doing the thing.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, and it could be a lot of, and maybe it’s not values related, but maybe it is, I would just do the digging. I’m a ruminator, I think about things all the time. Like it just happened last night, I had a kid wake me up when I woke me up at 3.30 in the morning, and then I thought I was gonna go back to sleep and then I didn’t and so I was like ruminating about, things that, you know, I don’t even know why. But now this morning, I’m like, oh was I worried about it, and why, and how can I dig into it? So for me understanding that a pattern that’s not helpful, like, how can I understand what that pattern is, not just recognising it, understanding the underlying thing under it, and then do the next right thing to get out of that pattern, is another one for me.

 

Katie Treggiden 

And how about things where you’re experiencing sort of more literal, external conflict? So you’ve said, for example, I’m not going to use plastic anymore in any of my packaging and then one of your suppliers says, Sorry, the only way we can do it is by wrapping it in plastic, how do you kind of navigate conflict in those situations?

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, I think it goes back to this idea of what are we okay with and what is the hard line and what is not. And so, depending on kind of your overall goal, your mission, and this is where you might draw the hard line and say, No, I’m gonna go with another supplier, even though it means spending more money, or time. I think it’s going back to those values and saying, you know, what is our decision making process, how do we feel about it, and what is that repercussion. Are we okay with it? Because it’s a small batch of XYZ or are we not because this is this is not aligned to our mission and our values. And so I think, in that circumstance, we might have to draw harder lines. What are your thoughts on that?

 

Katie Treggiden 

I think it’s difficult, isn’t it? I have I’ve got an ongoing conversation at the moment. And I think sometimes you have a situation where there’s a difference between actually the most environmentally sustainable decision and the most environmentally performative decision. So sometimes something looks more eco versus what’s actually more eco. And I think that can be a tough one, because you’ve really got to then dig into, am I just doing this so that I don’t have to have lots of shouty conversations on Instagram or am I actually making the decision that is most aligned with my values. But I think that’s when it can be helpful to have that values framework to come back to so you’re not just making a kind of reaction based on fear, you’re actually kind of laying this out and weighing up the pros and cons and then working out how to communicate that I guess.

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, and I think it’s all about, it’s the intentionality, how are you thinking through your decision and then how am I communicating that decision to be able to say, in alignment with our values of x, y, and z, this is a decision that we made because of the impact of X and happy to chat further about it. But this is the decision that we made based on what we believe is best, not only for our own value system but for the planet.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Yeah, I think that is, it’s that nuance that’s important. And I think there’s so much perception that there is a right or wrong way to do sustainability. And particularly around things like plastics, veganism, you get a lot of shouting on the internet about these things. But I think when somebody can calmly go back and say, well, actually in alignment with my values, and taking into account these priorities, and the parts of environmentalism that are aligned to my mission, this is the decision I’ve made. And it’s very difficult to argue with that. You know, I think once you’ve given that much thought and made an informed, intentional decision, it’s not just a snap judgement of what the current most shouty issue is on the internet.

 

Laura Eigel 

And then I think it’s the consistency of using those same values to make lots of different decisions, and to be able to point to those instances and reasons. Like this isn’t just a one time thing, this is how we make our decisions very intentionally with these things in mind, and being able to talk about it freely, transparently.

 

Katie Treggiden 

And again, it kind of opens up that conversation to a power with rather than power over conversation, which it kind of reminds me of that conversation we’re having right at the beginning, that it stops being your right im wrong, and starts being a well, these are my values and my priorities, this is a decision I’ve made, you might make a different decision based on your values and your priorities. And I think I think those are the kinds of conversations we need to be having in the environmentalism space. Yeah, I love it.

So finally, let’s talk about sustaining values. Assuming we’ve kind of worked through all this, and we’re feeling comfortable, we’ve got it working, how do we make it stick, how can we run values aligned creative practices for the long haul?

 

Laura Eigel 

Yeah, I think it’s an intentional practice. And so I talked about doing a values check in every 90 days or so. And I think that’s gonna be important on a couple of different fronts. You might do that for your personal values, you might do that for your company values, because sometimes those are one in the same, sometimes those are a little bit different. Where are we living the values? Where are we not? Is there a circumstance that we’ve learned, have we done kind of that post mortem? I have an exercise called the high low exercise. So you might do one of those and understand like, what did we learn and how are we going to bring that into practice moving forward? And just this intentionality of planning in a values aligned way, not just for business planning, but also for yourself? Do time audit, I do it at least once a year, maybe you need to do it more. After a values check in, is there a value that like you wish you could give more love to? Is there a boundary then that you need to set? And then who are the people that you’re going to check in with? And how often are you going to check in with them? So who are you in community with? And who are you having these transparent conversations with? And who are you modelling this for? And so I think, unless we like build in this intentionality, at least quarterly, it could be something that could be a thing that we did that one time and an offsite for strategic planning. As opposed to a thing that this is how we do things, this is how we make decisions. So sustainability of your values is all about just that intentional check in and evolution really, because your values are are going to change or they’re going to iterate and I want you to build in some space for them to because you are not a static person, you are an evolving person and our values will continue to grow and change with us.

 

Katie Treggiden 

I love that idea because I think there’s this sense that values are intrinsic, and that’s it they kind of last forever and never must be deviated from. But you know, we are, as you say, evolving humans so this sense that those can evolve, the boundaries can evolve, the time allocation can evolve. But I guess it’s also about having a system in place so putting in those quarterly check ins in your calendar, so they’re kind of and having accountability to actually get them done. Right. quick fire round.

 

Laura Eigel 

Sure. Yeah.

 

Katie Treggiden 

What is the best book you’ve read or listened to of late?

 

Laura Eigel 

I recently finished reading The Waymakers by Tara Jaye Frank and it’s a diversity, equity and inclusion book and she talks all about how you as a leader, wherever you are, can make change in the workplace.

 

Katie Treggiden 

I love that we will include a link to that in the show notes. Favourite podcast apart from mine or yours?

 

Laura Eigel 

Of course, I am gonna go out on my the non-business route. I’m like a crime junkie, like a true crime fan and so Crime Junkie is my favourite podcast right now.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Amazing. I love it. I’ve finished the sentence circularity is…

 

Laura Eigel 

Evolution.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Nice. One thing you wish sustainable designer makers and crafts people knew?

 

Laura Eigel 

I wish that you knew that your values are about you and that you need to pour into them and then it’s the right time even if you’ve never done it before.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Nice. Best or worst life or business advice you’ve ever been given?

 

Laura Eigel 

Worst business advice I’ll go there, is that I needed to show up on video three times or more a day to increase all the socials. And that’s just it’s the worst business advice for me because that’s just not who I am.

 

Katie Treggiden 

And I am quite an introverted human and that feels like a lot.

 

Laura Eigel 

It is a lot and I’m in Yeah, that was a hard pass, so I said no to that.

 

Katie Treggiden 

Amazing, amazing. Thank you so much Laura, that’s been an absolutely brilliant episode, and I can’t wait to share it with the world.

 

Laura Eigel 

Thank you so much for having me.

 

Katie Treggiden 

My pleasure.

 

OUTRO

Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed what you’ve heard, follow me on Instagram @KatieTreggiden.1 And if you’re a designer maker who’s interested in sustainability, DM me a little recycling symbol and I’ll add you to my close friends group, which is especially for sustainable designer makers.

You might want to sign up to my E-newsletter via the link in the show notes. And it would be amazing if you could follow or review the podcast in whichever platform you’re listening on, that really helps other people to find it, so that’s super helpful.

I want to say one last thank you to Inhabit my gorgeous brand partner for this season who have helped bring it to life and I also want to give a shout out to the Ko-Fi supporters from the initiative that we did in series two. So Kathryn Kernow, Bob Shankley, Eleanor Burke, Vicky Pulter, Leslie Curtis, Val Muddyman, David Clarke and Nolan Giles all bought me a virtual coffee to help with the production of season three.

And last but not least, I want to say a huge thank you to Kirsty Spain whose production skills you are listening to as I speak.

Thank you so much for listening.